[MD] Salami & Wisdom ?

X Acto xacto at rocketmail.com
Sun Aug 23 07:26:16 PDT 2009 

Well,

I looked up what exactly a koan was and how it related
to Japanese culture and it filled the same purposes as
socratic method in our own, taught in law schools
used as case studies with no one answer.

I read Phaedrus and in Phaedrus, Socrates explains

eleaic method and it corresponds to how the Japanese
used the Koan. as a case study. used to induce confusion
and a new understanding.

It's explained in the Sophist as well

Plato wrote in the style of the oral 
the idea being that written words corrupted ideas.
that truth is contextual and not absolute


he used socratic method when he wrote

much as Pirsig did

to question our own beliefs and truths

Plato was a sophist

there was no new wisdom or ultimate truth to his works

he invites us to inquirey about what we think we know



 


----- Original Message ----
From: Marsha <valkyr at att.net>
To: "moq_discuss at moqtalk.org" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:56:03 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?

Ron,

Where did you learn that Plato wrote in koans?

Marsha

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2009, at 9:42 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> I had felt that way too
> but
> I had a need to revisit it given I have learned that he
> wote in the same style as Pirsig as a narrative.
> a Koan
> 
> in Dwai's words:
> This I believe was Nagarjuna's use of prasanga (or Dialectics) to show that any position in a debate can be reduced to absurdity and contradiction.
> 
> This is meant to show that no categorical framework in itself is absolute...neither the "truth claims" that they make. The "Truth"/Reality that people see/adhere to is simply a result of the categorical framework they use."
> 
> Understanding it in this way and not in the way he has been interpreted as other philosophic writing of the time
> 
> of an exponding of an absollute philosphical system to be dogmatically followed as Aristotle or protagoras.
> try reading Sophist, just this once with this sort of eye and, in relation to the conversations that have been
> engaged recently.
> 
> You may be pleasently suprised
> 
> I was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 3:05:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
> 
> Ron,
> 
> I do not want to necessarily cause controversy, but I do not necessarily
> want to avoid challenging what is politically correct, even philosophically,
> either.  I'm not intelligent enough or philosophically knowledgeable enough
> to be one much a challenge. -  I have the complete works of Plato, and have
> read some of it.  I am tired of Plato, though, and would like to read and
> consider seriously those writers who were/are thinking around, beyond,
> beneath Plato for a different perspective, a better perspective.
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:25 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
> 
> I think a better term
> 
> one that would draw less
> 
> controversy is Pragmatism
> 
> which holds many truths
> 
> and which are contextual
> to experience
> 
> I just read
> 
> Sophist
> 
> by Plato and it is a wonderful dialog of the sort
> 
> you are pursuing
> 
> http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/sophist.html
> 
> 
> and an excellent piece to discuss which concerns the issue without getting
> 
> personal in way of beliefs and accusitory of attacks
> 
> -Ron
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:14:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
> 
>> From Wiki:
> 
> "The term (Relativism) often refers to truth relativism, which is the
> doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always
> relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a
> culture."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism
> 
> 
> The MoQ support multiple truths.  Seems to me the frame of reference within
> the MoQ would be the value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of david buchanan
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:01 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Salami & Wisdom ?
> 
> 
> Marsha said:
> Just for the record, I still say the truth of knowledge, which is static
> patterns of value, is still relative to immediate experience.
> 
> 
> dmb says:
> 
> According to my computer's dictionary, the term "relative" has seven
> different definitions. Four of them are adjectives. Three of them are nouns.
> None of them refers to "relativism". In your sentence above, the term
> "relative" is used to mean that static patterns are "related" to immediate
> experience or that concepts exist in "relation" to immediate experience. If
> you mean to say that concepts are derived from experience, I'd agree.
> Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with relativism. As the little joke
> about me and my cousin being related to each other was meant to indicate, as
> the explanation about panrelationalism was meant to indicate, relativism is
> NOT merely a claim that one thing is related to another - whether than
> relation is genetic or conceptual or anything else. That's just not what
> relativism means. That's just not how people use the term. Well, not
> informed people anyway.
> It's hard to me to believe that you are really THAT confused about what the
> word means. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
> 
> 
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