[MD] Moq Evolution
MarshaV
valkyr at att.net
Thu Jul 23 22:31:56 PDT 2009
Greetings Joe,
You mentioned the relationship between seven and the esoteric traditions.
This story of Ishtar/Inanna's descent is very old.
You've used the word 'chaos', and I wonder what it means really? Is it just
an objective word for fear? Deep fear? Does it have an aspect of time
associated with it? Is it experienced for a moment, an hour, a day, week or
year? Forever? Is it being unable to control the past and the future?
Unpredictability? Love? Life? Is evolution a pattern of predictability?
(Also associating neural chemistry with emotions?) I'm trying to guess
here, it would be better if you explained it. What is chaos?
Marsha
-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:30 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
On 7/23/09 12:19 AM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
[Marsha]
"The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in the
underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at a
time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders her
servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.
After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her
and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles
Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is fully
clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the underworld.
Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead, and
so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
Hi Marsha and all,
No, I don¹t see AW GI as being an accusation/insult. I see it as the
open-eyed, child wonder, ³I didn¹t know that!, but I can learn²
Imho I can look at things, in general, from two points of view. How does
it manifest? Is it active, passive or neutral? Or in what order does it
manifest? The first question looks at reality as one, made up of 3 forces,
Active, Passive, or Neutral. Tamuz making merry.
Or I can look at things as being in some order, like evolution, the musical
scale, seven intervals with two of them being of different value.
Undefined, with no clothes on, is the MOQ description of order. Not
knowing the joy of order, sex goes away and is merely a party.
Ishtar¹s order is a higher consideration than Tamuz¹ manifestations. A
story of life!
The point of view is secondary to, in what order of evolution does it
reside?
Joe
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:00 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>
>
>
>
> On 7/22/09 1:45 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> Hello Joe,
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> An interesting aspect of your posts is that I am never sure how to
respond,
> so I wing it.
>
> [Joe]
> I miss Krimel¹s spontaneity. ³wing it² I can hear him guffawing about
> brining chickens to mind. In a heavy rainstorm chickens will look up,
open
> their beaks, and drown.
>
> Marsha:
> Wonder if this is true? If so, I might think evolution hiccupped. I miss
> Krimel too; he was fun to argue with. He had that 'because I say so'
> attitude that drove me crazy. I was beginning to remember arguments I had
> had with my father, a Prussian father by the way. As if whatever Krimel
> said should be presumed to be true because he said it. Hahahahaha. Or
> because "science" says so, and maybe a few decades ago because "the bible"
> says so. Hahahahaha OMG, or "the professors" say so. Quality is there
> for first-hand tasting.
>
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> Do I think Quality is moral? I image it is totally moral. When I am not
> separate from Quality it feels to be, without exception, totally moral.
>
> [Joe]
> If quality is metaphysical everything, How do you separate from quality?
>
> Marsha:
> Only by a misconception, by illusion, by insanity. I make this mistake
all
> the time, and am always very relieved to find my way home again.
>
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> What do I think about the MoQ Evolution? I think it is an elegant part of
> the RMP's metaphysics. Beautiful in its modern intellectual explanation.
> Coherent might be a good word. But, Joe, I am not inspired by it on a
> mystical level. For me the Net of Jewels model is better, where the
reason
> for a pattern's existence is dependent on the existence of every other
> pattern throughout all four levels (conventional reality). Here's where,
> not two truths, but the example of two maps might apply.
>
> [Joe]
> In the past I have used the word ³mystical² for the perception of
undefined
> dynamic quality. For whatever reason I have come to see that I perceive
> ³mystical as a ³weasel² word, and I avoid it.
>
> Marsha:
> Should I write something like: from the transcendent perspective? Any
word
> would be a very poor choice compared to the experience. What word makes
you
> comfortable? Or maybe you question my ability to go beyond thoughts and
> words? Saying anything at all will sound preposterous to one who hasn't
> recognized such an experience, and that such an experience is quite
natural.
>
>
> I think the word 'god' is a weasel word, I suppose assigning the label
> 'weasel' is relative.
>
>
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> It is also for the mystical experience, which should be common, not rare,
> that I am led to want a meta-level. Intellectual patterns seem to block
the
> mystical experience. If the MoQ view was seen above the Intellectual
Level
> it would be understood as fully and knowingly participating in the
> conventional/patterned reality (all four levels) and also maintaining a
> direct relationship with Ultimate/Dynamic Reality.
>
> [Joe]
> Imho the two levels above the intellectual level are levels only in
> awareness: higher emotional level, higher intellectual level.
>
> Marsha:
>> From my experience I cannot say your opinion is wrong. But it seems to me
> the label 'higher emotional' and 'higher intellectual' comes after the
> experience which is not a wordy experience.
>
>
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> The Subject/Object point-of-view with its me, me, me is insane. And as
far
> as I'm concerned the Intellectual Level is subject/object through and
> through. Even within the new Quantum understanding, it is administered
> steeped in objectivity and often laced with materialism. I have sent for
a
> book, "Understanding the Uncertainty principle" to see what it says, but I
> don't have much hope. There are scientists that have jumped the fence and
> running free, but they do not seem to be considered mainstream. Of course
I
> am not a Quantum insider, and know what I know as someone not
scientifically
> or mathematically trained, just someone peering in a window.
>
> [Joe]
> My experience with the word Quantum was Latin, in conjunction with the
word
> Tantum.
> Tantum/quantum, As much, so much.
>
> Marsha
> Words! Words! I'm so sick of words! Aren't these lyrics to a song?
>
>
> [Joe]
> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the musical
> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
> search.
>
> [[Marsha:] 1]
> I love it when you write of seven levels. I read a bit about harmony when
I
> was studying classical guitar, and I always think you are talking about
> harmony and making beautiful music.
>
> [Joe]
> AW GI
>
> Is that an accusation/insult (like Krimel's) for not being objective? Is
it
> wrong to seek beauty and harmony before objectivity? Do you know Ishtar's
> dance of the seven veils (the heroines journey)? From Wikipedia:
>
> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in the
> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at a
> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
her
> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.
> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her
> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles
> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
fully
> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
underworld.
> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
and
> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>
>
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:13 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/09 1:38 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> [Marsha:]
>> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
>> value concerned with the order of existence.
>>
>> [Marsha:]
>> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
Irish
>> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>>
>> [Marsha:]
>> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
>> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into.
> You
>> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
> I'm
>> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what
> I
>> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
> can
>> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
> then
>> reality changes too.
>>
>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>
>> [Joe]
>> I have changed the name of the subject to MOQ EVOLITION
>>
>> [Joe]
>> Pirsig proposes four levels of evolution: inorganic, organic, social,
>> intellectual. He also says that the penetration of the egg cell wall, by
>> the sperm cell, for reproduction is dynamic. DQ/SQ. Morality is based on
>> evolution. The difference in levels from lower to higher is the basis
> for
>> a moral judgment.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> Bo proposes a meta-level is above intellect. I am not sure.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the musical
>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>> search.
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>>
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>
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