[MD] Moq Evolution
Joseph Maurer
jhmau at sbcglobal.net
Fri Jul 24 12:57:43 PDT 2009
On 7/23/09 10:31 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> Greetings Joe,
>
> You mentioned the relationship between seven and the esoteric traditions.
> This story of Ishtar/Inanna's descent is very old.
>
> You've used the word 'chaos', and I wonder what it means really? Is it just
> an objective word for fear? Deep fear? Does it have an aspect of time
> associated with it? Is it experienced for a moment, an hour, a day, week or
> year? Forever? Is it being unable to control the past and the future?
> Unpredictability? Love? Life? Is evolution a pattern of predictability?
> (Also associating neural chemistry with emotions?) I'm trying to guess
> here, it would be better if you explained it. What is chaos?
>
>
>
> Marsha
Hi Marsha,
The only description for ³chaos² that I can come up with is DQ in
evolution.
Bo used a good example : The ocean has finite and transient forms (waves and
currents) but is absolute and immutable in itself because waves and currents
are water too. Thanks Bo!
Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:30 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>
>
>
>
> On 7/23/09 12:19 AM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> [Marsha]
> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in the
> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at a
> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders her
> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her.
> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her
> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles
> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is fully
> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the underworld.
> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead, and
> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>
>
> Hi Marsha and all,
>
> No, I don¹t see AW GI as being an accusation/insult. I see it as the
> open-eyed, child wonder, ³I didn¹t know that!, but I can learn²
>
> Imho I can look at things, in general, from two points of view. How does
> it manifest? Is it active, passive or neutral? Or in what order does it
> manifest? The first question looks at reality as one, made up of 3 forces,
> Active, Passive, or Neutral. Tamuz making merry.
>
> Or I can look at things as being in some order, like evolution, the musical
> scale, seven intervals with two of them being of different value.
> Undefined, with no clothes on, is the MOQ description of order. Not
> knowing the joy of order, sex goes away and is merely a party.
>
> Ishtar¹s order is a higher consideration than Tamuz¹ manifestations. A
> story of life!
>
> The point of view is secondary to, in what order of evolution does it
> reside?
>
> Joe
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:00 PM
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/22/09 1:45 PM, "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Joe,
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> An interesting aspect of your posts is that I am never sure how to
> respond,
>> so I wing it.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> I miss Krimel¹s spontaneity. ³wing it² I can hear him guffawing about
>> brining chickens to mind. In a heavy rainstorm chickens will look up,
> open
>> their beaks, and drown.
>>
>> Marsha:
>> Wonder if this is true? If so, I might think evolution hiccupped. I miss
>> Krimel too; he was fun to argue with. He had that 'because I say so'
>> attitude that drove me crazy. I was beginning to remember arguments I had
>> had with my father, a Prussian father by the way. As if whatever Krimel
>> said should be presumed to be true because he said it. Hahahahaha. Or
>> because "science" says so, and maybe a few decades ago because "the bible"
>> says so. Hahahahaha OMG, or "the professors" say so. Quality is there
>> for first-hand tasting.
>>
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> Do I think Quality is moral? I image it is totally moral. When I am not
>> separate from Quality it feels to be, without exception, totally moral.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> If quality is metaphysical everything, How do you separate from quality?
>>
>> Marsha:
>> Only by a misconception, by illusion, by insanity. I make this mistake
> all
>> the time, and am always very relieved to find my way home again.
>>
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> What do I think about the MoQ Evolution? I think it is an elegant part of
>> the RMP's metaphysics. Beautiful in its modern intellectual explanation..
>> Coherent might be a good word. But, Joe, I am not inspired by it on a
>> mystical level. For me the Net of Jewels model is better, where the
> reason
>> for a pattern's existence is dependent on the existence of every other
>> pattern throughout all four levels (conventional reality). Here's where,
>> not two truths, but the example of two maps might apply.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> In the past I have used the word ³mystical² for the perception of
> undefined
>> dynamic quality. For whatever reason I have come to see that I perceive
>> ³mystical as a ³weasel² word, and I avoid it.
>>
>> Marsha:
>> Should I write something like: from the transcendent perspective? Any
> word
>> would be a very poor choice compared to the experience. What word makes
> you
>> comfortable? Or maybe you question my ability to go beyond thoughts and
>> words? Saying anything at all will sound preposterous to one who hasn't
>> recognized such an experience, and that such an experience is quite
> natural.
>>
>>
>> I think the word 'god' is a weasel word, I suppose assigning the label
>> 'weasel' is relative.
>>
>>
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> It is also for the mystical experience, which should be common, not rare,
>> that I am led to want a meta-level. Intellectual patterns seem to block
> the
>> mystical experience. If the MoQ view was seen above the Intellectual
> Level
>> it would be understood as fully and knowingly participating in the
>> conventional/patterned reality (all four levels) and also maintaining a
>> direct relationship with Ultimate/Dynamic Reality.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> Imho the two levels above the intellectual level are levels only in
>> awareness: higher emotional level, higher intellectual level.
>>
>> Marsha:
>>> From my experience I cannot say your opinion is wrong. But it seems to me
>> the label 'higher emotional' and 'higher intellectual' comes after the
>> experience which is not a wordy experience.
>>
>>
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> The Subject/Object point-of-view with its me, me, me is insane. And as
> far
>> as I'm concerned the Intellectual Level is subject/object through and
>> through. Even within the new Quantum understanding, it is administered
>> steeped in objectivity and often laced with materialism. I have sent for
> a
>> book, "Understanding the Uncertainty principle" to see what it says, but I
>> don't have much hope. There are scientists that have jumped the fence and
>> running free, but they do not seem to be considered mainstream. Of course
> I
>> am not a Quantum insider, and know what I know as someone not
> scientifically
>> or mathematically trained, just someone peering in a window.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> My experience with the word Quantum was Latin, in conjunction with the
> word
>> Tantum.
>> Tantum/quantum, As much, so much.
>>
>> Marsha
>> Words! Words! I'm so sick of words! Aren't these lyrics to a song?
>>
>>
>> [Joe]
>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the musical
>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>> search.
>>
>> [[Marsha:] 1]
>> I love it when you write of seven levels. I read a bit about harmony when
> I
>> was studying classical guitar, and I always think you are talking about
>> harmony and making beautiful music.
>>
>> [Joe]
>> AW GI
>>
>> Is that an accusation/insult (like Krimel's) for not being objective? Is
> it
>> wrong to seek beauty and harmony before objectivity? Do you know Ishtar's
>> dance of the seven veils (the heroines journey)? From Wikipedia:
>>
>> "The Dance of the Seven Veils is also thought to have originated with the
>> myth of the goddess Ishtar and the god Tammuz of Assyrian and Babylonian
>> lore. In this myth, Ishtar decides to visit her sister, Ereshkigal, in the
>> underworld. When Ishtar approaches the gates of the underworld, the
>> gatekeeper lets Ishtar pass through the seven gates, opening one gate at a
>> time. At each gate, Ishtar has to shed an article of clothing. When she
>> finally passes the seventh gate, she is naked. In a rage, Ishtar throws
>> herself at Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld; but Ereshkigal orders
> her
>> servant Namtar to imprison Ishtar and unleash sixty diseases against her..
>> After Ishtar descends to the underworld, all sexual activity ceases on
>> earth. Papsukkal, the messenger-god, reports the situation to Ea, king of
>> the gods. Ea creates a eunuch called Asu-shu-namir and sends him to
>> Ereshkigal, telling him to invoke "the name of the great gods" against her
>> and to ask for the bag containing the waters of life. Ereshkigal, having
>> promised to grant Asu-shu-namir's wish, is enraged when she hears the
>> demand, but she has to give him the water of life. Asu-shu-namir sprinkles
>> Ishtar with this water, reviving her. Then Ishtar passes back through the
>> seven gates, getting one article of clothing back at each gate, and is
> fully
>> clothed as she exits the last gate. Her release is, however, granted only
>> under the condition that she find someone to replace her in the
> underworld.
>> Tammuz, Ishtar's husband, has been making merry while she has been dead,
> and
>> so the goddess sends Tammuz to Ereshkigal."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
>>> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Maurer
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 3:13 PM
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Moq Evolution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/21/09 1:38 PM, "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [Marsha:]
>>> Evolution is a high quality intellectual (scientific) static pattern of
>>> value concerned with the order of existence.
>>>
>>> [Marsha:]
>>> Holy Moly, I'm from Michigan too. Small world. My favorite place was
> Irish
>>> Hills where my Oma lived on one of the Twin Lakes.
>>>
>>> [Marsha:]
>>> Reality? I was in tears of joy with the best understanding of REALITY I
>>> ever heard spoken by Lila: "...I'm whatever your questions turn me into..
>> You
>>> don't see that. It's your questions that make me who I am. If you think
>> I'm
>>> an angel then that's what I am. If you think I'm a whore then that's what
>> I
>>> am. I'm whatever you think. And if you change your mind about me then I
>>> change too. So whatever Richard tells you, it's true. There's no way he
>> can
>>> lie about me." - Reality is whatever you think it is, there's no way
>>> you can lie about it, and if you change your understanding of reality,
>> then
>>> reality changes too.
>>>
>>> Hi Marsha and all,
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> I have changed the name of the subject to MOQ EVOLITION
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> Pirsig proposes four levels of evolution: inorganic, organic, social,
>>> intellectual. He also says that the penetration of the egg cell wall, by
>>> the sperm cell, for reproduction is dynamic. DQ/SQ. Morality is based on
>>> evolution. The difference in levels from lower to higher is the basis
>> for
>>> a moral judgment.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> Bo proposes a meta-level is above intellect. I am not sure.
>>>
>>> [Joe]
>>> Esoteric literature proposes seven levels for evolution using the musical
>>> scale as an example. I am not sure but I think the musical scale was
>>> attributed to Pythagoras. I did not understand what I found in a Google
>>> search.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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