[MD] (Fwd) Re: John Carl Critiques Pure Experience:INST01

[X Acto]

John said to Bo:
> Quality is ultimately the "big picture" - an Idealistic framework -
> and radical empiricism is the reductionistic mechanism thought (by
> some) to prove/produce its existence.
Bo:
The MOQ as the ultimate picture goes without saying, it being neither 
idealist nor materialist is just as plain - these categories belong to 
SOM. Plain is it also that SOM's various tools - among them 
empiricism - had to be used by DQ to make it out of SOM  -- out of 
intellect.  

Ron:
Notice Bo, that John actually said that the MoQ was a bigger picture
not the ultimate picture. Part of it's betterness is that it is bigger
than the objectivist view of "ultimate" reality.  

dmb says:
> No, the metaphysics of Quality is the big picture and it's an
> intellectual framework, just as all metaphysical systems are. 
Bo:
That the Quality Idea began as an intellectual pattern is plain, but as in 
the case of all levels growing from its parent, it began as a dynamic 
pattern that couldn't be contained and started "on a purpose of its 
own". And after its departure it was THE MOQ and SOM had become 
its own intellectual level. 

Ron:
Where do you arrive at this idea? in your understanding it may have
"gone off on a purpose of it's own" which is the very defect SOM has,
it did not support it's lower levels and grew away from it's purpose
of sustaining social patterns of quality. It was certainly "moral" of it
to do so, but, it undercut it's heirarchal base leading to a social nightmare
of biological dominance.

MoQ's purpose is to re establish intellects role as the sustainer of social
and biological quality, not to run off on a purpose of it's own and make
the same mistake as (SOM) did.

The problem, the one you are stuck on, is taking objectivisms viewpoint
that subjective experience is unreal. That values hold no truth or certainty,
they are not substantive and therefore hold no factual meaning.
The static immune system that MoQ is up against, the one that interprets it
as subjective idealism. The vey thing you fear.

The MoQ, Pirsigs MoQ, takes the position that subjective experience is
the origin of the reality we experience. The objective viewpoint famously
misinterprets this, as you yourself do. It is interpreted as saying anything
from objects only existing when they are subjectivly percieved to the subjective
conceptual generation of all objective external reality, they just can't stop
assuming the idea of an external reality of objective substance as the starting
point of experience which keeps them from the MoQ understanding.
MoQ starts with the dynamic quality of experience, not conceptualized
notions of an"external" "utlimate" reality, MoQ says that this is DQ,
the knowable non conceptual now of experience before it is understood
in any fashion.It has no substance other than what is conceptually given.
Pirsig calls this primal value, the value all other values spring from and their
test of trueness.

but that static SOM cultural immune filter has your head wrapped in it's testicals.


:)