[MD] Perceptions: the deception of it all...

[MarshaV]

At 03:46 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote:
> > Language is a problems?  Are not your static patterns your reality?   K and
> >> DB arecalling truth the actuality of immediate experience.  So if I am
> >> translating their terminology properly, reality = static 
> patterns, and truth
> >> (immediate experience) = DQ.   They are both interesting men, and I find
> >> their dialogues fascinating.
> >>
> >
>Marsha,
>Have patience as I stumble through this; it's been about 10 years since I
>read Ellul and all I've got left now is the consciousness of his re-ordering
>of my static patterns into more meaningful interpretation of both Truth and
>Reality.  But I'd like to take this a bit deeper with you if you don't mind.
>
>The biggest obstacle I've got is with "truth = immediate experience".
>Immediate experience has no value attached until a judgement is applied to
>it; until then it is just a collection of sensory datum with no order, logic
>or  truth.

Greetings John,

I believe Krishnamurti and David Bohm are trying to explain an 
insight that is beyond thoughts and language, Quality perhaps, which, 
as you know, is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable.  If your 
'judgement' is of the conceptual type then it is something other than 
immediate experience as I know it.



>If I make a statement about my experience, then I have  abstracted my
>experience with thought/language and this thought/language construct is
>either true (congruent to my experience) or not true.  But the fact remains
>that truth is of this realm of abstraction and reality is different - of
>this realm of immediate sensory experience.   The two realms go together so
>often that they tend to get confused.  People SEE something on TV and
>without thinking much, conclude it is true.   Or conversely, they hear some
>hard to understand truth (Quality is Real) and since they can't see it, they
>think it isn't real - even if it sounds logical - true.

Interesting.



>Ellul's main point in Humiliation of the Word is that we are evolving
>culturally to value image and surface appearance more and more and valuing
>truth and words less and less as we are bombarded with media and image based
>advertising 24/7 and this is bringing about the degradation of intellect in
>  fundamental ways.

This is an opinion that you value.



>DQ as I understand it, is not of one or the other.  In the cosmology of
>Quality, DQ is the where the rubber meets the road.  Its where our truth
>meets reality - where our intellectual constructs correspond nicely with our
>immediate experience and we go AHA inside.
>
>And as to your first statement I can only offer you this:
>
>"Language is a problem to those who feel but a challenge to those that
>think"

I return the offer with this by an unknown author:

"English is a funny language; that explains why we park our car on 
the driveway and drive our car on the parkway."


Marsha









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The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and 
interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, 
static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.

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