[MD] NAP

[X Acto]

________________________________

From: blue-jay maple <libertytree at mail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] NAP


Ron:

I said unbias opinions do not exist.
Does this mean that coercion by lying is acceptable?

Ron prev:
> That law is inherent in nature
> obvious to anyone.

Nick:
It doesn't have to be obvious.  Criminals exist.  just saying criminals cause they 
are the only violators of liberty according to the natural law of human nature.

Ron:
There is no natural law of human behaviour Nick.

Ron prev:
> Nature is everchanging which means that natural 
> law is everchanging

Nick:
Show me how how liberty is a crime?  Show me how initiating physical coercion 
is justice.  Give me an example.

Ron:
Show me where I stated these things? you are bending the discussion Nick.

Ron prev:
> the expereincer is part of experience, everchanging.
> If ideas of"Justice" and "Liberty" are everchanging they are 
> universally meaningless.

Nick:
They would be.  But they aren't everchanging.  People's perception 
of what these concepts mean change, but the concepts themselves 
are defined.  A flower is still a flower.

Ron:
Defined by who? our culture?

Ron prev:
> They are culturally derived ideals based on the idea of the 
> existence of an objective truth in nature.

Nick:
Nope.  They are moral values.

Ron:
Moral values, are culturally derrived norms. Reject this and you reject MoQ.
MoQ's Morality is something entirely different.




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> Ron:
> > Nick,
> > You use the terms "Justice" and "liberty"
> > as though they stand for objective universal truths.
> > MoQ rejects objective universal views.

> Nick previously:
>   What do you mean by "objective"?  They are subjective
> cause people are to be willing to minimize conflict.  That's
> what the NAP is all about.  They are moral values.  I said that
> in a previous post.  Natural rights are conflated moral values
> due to their universal ability to be applied.  But values none-the-
> less that can be discarded, thrown away, and people can ignore
> liberty and justice if they want to.  Criminals (not you or anybody)
> prove liberty and justice are not objective, if by objective you
> mean unchangeability or utopian.  I haven't used objective in a
> long time.  Is that what it means?  I can't remember.
> 
> Ron:
> I mean that to assume that unbias opinions exist.

Nick:
I never said unbiased opinions don't exist.  Liberty is dynamic.  It 
is not my opinion, though I have an opinion on what liberty is.  Liberty 
is everywhere.  That's why it's a universal natural right.  It's not confined 
to my opinion.  It's an opinion that's age old and is constantly applied.  
I mean liberty means the absence of initiating physical coercion.  I see that 
most of my life in direct experience.