[MD] NAP

[X Acto]

Nick:
Show me how how liberty is a crime?  Show me how initiating physical coercion 
is justice.  Give me an example.

Ron:
Show me where I stated these things? you are bending the discussion Nick.

Ron prev:
> the expereincer is part of experience, everchanging.
> If ideas of"Justice" and "Liberty" are everchanging they are 
> universally meaningless.

Nick:
They would be.  But they aren't everchanging.  People's perception 
of what these concepts mean change, but the concepts themselves 
are defined.  A flower is still a flower.

Ron:
This is the problem, If peoples perception of what those concepts mean
change then the concepts themselves have changed.

making "Justice" and "liberty" contextual.

If they are contextual they do not have a universal meaning do they?



 



________________________________
From: X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:30:39 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] NAP





________________________________

From: blue-jay maple <libertytree at mail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] NAP


Ron:

I said unbias opinions do not exist.
Does this mean that coercion by lying is acceptable?

Ron prev:
> That law is inherent in nature
> obvious to anyone.

Nick:
It doesn't have to be obvious.  Criminals exist.  just saying criminals cause they 
are the only violators of liberty according to the natural law of human nature.

Ron:
There is no natural law of human behaviour Nick.

Ron prev:
> Nature is everchanging which means that natural 
> law is everchanging

Nick:
Show me how how liberty is a crime?  Show me how initiating physical coercion 
is justice.  Give me an example.

Ron:
Show me where I stated these things? you are bending the discussion Nick.

Ron prev:
> the expereincer is part of experience, everchanging.
> If ideas of"Justice" and "Liberty" are everchanging they are 
> universally meaningless.

Nick:
They would be.  But they aren't everchanging.  People's perception 
of what these concepts mean change, but the concepts themselves 
are defined.  A flower is still a flower.

Ron:
Defined by who? our culture?

Ron prev:
> They are culturally derived ideals based on the idea of the 
> existence of an objective truth in nature.

Nick:
Nope.  They are moral values.

Ron:
Moral values, are culturally derrived norms. Reject this and you reject MoQ.
MoQ's Morality is something entirely different.




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> Ron:
> > Nick,
> > You use the terms "Justice" and "liberty"
> > as though they stand for objective universal truths.
> > MoQ rejects objective universal views.

> Nick previously:
>   What do you mean by "objective"?  They are subjective
> cause people are to be willing to minimize conflict.  That's
> what the NAP is all about.  They are moral values.  I said that
> in a previous post.  Natural rights are conflated moral values
> due to their universal ability to be applied.  But values none-the-
> less that can be discarded, thrown away, and people can ignore
> liberty and justice if they want to.  Criminals (not you or anybody)
> prove liberty and justice are not objective, if by objective you
> mean unchangeability or utopian.  I haven't used objective in a
> long time.  Is that what it means?  I can't remember.
> 
> Ron:
> I mean that to assume that unbias opinions exist.

Nick:
I never said unbiased opinions don't exist.  Liberty is dynamic.  It 
is not my opinion, though I have an opinion on what liberty is.  Liberty 
is everywhere.  That's why it's a universal natural right.  It's not confined 
to my opinion.  It's an opinion that's age old and is constantly applied.  
I mean liberty means the absence of initiating physical coercion.  I see that 
most of my life in direct experience.


      
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