[MD] Soicial systems conducive to DQ

[kieffer odigaunt]

Hi Krim,

2009/3/25 Krimel <Krimel at krimel.com>

.......  Pirsig sees DQ as a drive toward betterness.
> I think he really is at odds with evolutionary thinking on this point.


I cant think of anything better than continued existence, so I dont see any
contradiction.

The story of evolution is written in the genes of survivors. Like most
> history,
> it is written by the winners. Winners always provide a rosy version of the
> past they reflect. Rather than simply the nostalgic projections of
> optimists
> Pirsig sees this as some actualized future, drawing us hence.


It's a while now since i opened ZAMM or Lila but i think i would have put
the books down if i thought he was saying we were being drawn towards some
actualised or definite future; he always left 'Quality' undefined and i
think it is only through association and our tendency to anthropomorphise
that such teleological ideas arise - thats probably the origin of the God
idea also.


> [K]
> I think evolution means not merely change but change for the better
> resulting in increased organisation.
>
> The question is, "Why?"
>
> [Krimel]
> This makes the term "better" dissolve into absolute ambiguity.


Yes - Pirsig's writings are crystal clear about the impossibility of
defining Quality.


> The Sage of Ecclesiastes says, "It is 'better' to be a live dog than a dead
> lion."
> "Better" is always a relative term.
>
> Why ask, "why?"?
> When wielded by children, it simply breeds infinite regress.


Again i agree - i would rather ask 'How?'.


> [Krimel]
> Here, I would point out that mutation played almost no role in Darwin's
> account of finches.


... and, likewise, i said to Platt that as far as t i know Darwin never
talked about chance with regard to evolution.


> He speculated that there were once no finches in the
> Galapagos. At some point a single species of finch arrived. They all had
> beaks of a particular type common of finches in their original home.
>
> As the population grew, there were be minor variations in the size shape of
> finch beaks. These will form a bell curve around the most common size and
> shape of beak. There will also be outliers, some larger and some smaller
> than average.
>
> The average size and shape shifts among the finches as they are distributed
> throughout the different environmental condition found in the Galapagos
> chain. He accounts for the differences in finch beaks as shifts in the
> average size and shape over long spans of time.


Yes, almost certainly a bell curve but would be very difficult to prove
because some of the variations would not be selected - those lines being, as
it were, discontinued!

Thanks for your input Krimel.

-KO