[MD] QRE: The 4th. level's two interpretations. Part 2

[mark_maxwell at talktalk.net]

Squonk,
You seem to discriminate between types of patterns, and I put the emphasis between types of processing. For me, there is a (illusionary) belief within both the Social Level and the Intellectual Level that reality is comprised of self and objects.

Hi Marsha,
This conversation is an intellectual debate is it not?
We are not engaged in social chit chat.
If we are engaged in an intellectual debate we will, of necessity, be manipulating abstract symbols that do not refer to subjects or objects. This manipulation is an aesthetic: which is more beautiful? the SOL or the moq.
Manipulation implies a process - different patterns, same processes; social patterns also have their aesthetic.
Ultimately, the aesthetic is Dynamic in nature.

Marsha:
In the Social Level this belief is unconscious, and is a belief, as you have stated, built on imitation/habit of thought/indoctrination.

Squonk:
If you think about it, you may realise that the very terms ‘subjects’ and ‘objects’ are abstract symbols. That is to say, they are intellectual patterns of values that, ironically, do not refer to either subjects or objects.
This is a subtle point, but it demonstrates that intellect creates SOM and is prior to it.
Re. unconscious beliefs:
If a belief is not immediate to conscious discrimination then you don’t know you hold it by definition. If you do know you hold it then it is not unconscious.
Your thesis appear to be that self consciousness can only exist with the realisation that there are subjects and objects. This may be, but prior to self consciousness there existed cosmology, Geometry and Mathematics, which blows the notion that self consciousness and the intellectual level are linked.

Marsha:
In the Intellectual Level the belief that reality is composed of self and objects has become fully conscious and built into the processing.

Squonk:
Self consciousness is not linked to hyper-symbolic manipulation.
Therefore, it is a symbolic ‘self’ that is exerting influence as a belief.
I think this symbolic self is biological in nature and is the source of the ego; it is the egos voice screaming for attention.
In other words, the ego hijacks intellectuality in order to throw its weight around.

Marsha:
Within the process of the Intellectual Level there is a concern that the self, through erroneously held beliefs and emotions, contaminate the understanding of the external objects in the world, so the manipulation of the these external objects includes every attempt to diminish the subjective influences.

Squonk:
The ego has landed. Truth is a rhetorical device to ‘out-better’ other egos.
Truth is an intellectual pattern.

Marsha:
Processes such as justice, H1N1, blood circulation, E = mc2 have been extracted from DQ, given boundaries and converted into entities to be manipulated in a way that explains, makes useful or controls them.

Squonk:
This is shifting all over the place and I am finding it a little hard to follow, but I think am keeping up. I think this description accords with the views I’ve stated, which I feel are largely those of the moq anyway.

Marsha:
For me, the Quality Level represents experience without a self or objects; it represents a world very, very different than the Intellectual Level. Within the Quality Level there is DQ which I call unpatterned experience and others call the undifferentiated flow. There is also patterned experience where static patterns of value are overlaid onto the undifferentiated flow. That's all folks. Quality equals unpatterned experience and patterned experience, OR Quality equals Dynamic Quality and static quality.

Marsha

Squonk:
Nothing new here, but you omit the precise description of a moral hierarchy when you make such a broad statement.

All the best,
squonk