[MD] QRE: The 4th. level's two interpretations. Par

[Steven Peterson]

Hi Squonk,

I think it is interesting to think of a hierarchy of levels of
awareness, such as that described by Ken Wilbur, as related to the MOQ
hierarchy of types of patterns of value, but many here have confused
the two ideas. The "level of awareness" idea has an "intellectual
level" that represents people who are aware of intellectual patterns
as well as social, biological, and inorganic patterms (rather than the
collection of all intellectual patterns). The fallout of this thinking
has been that it would seem that one who is aware of the interplay
between the four different types of patterns of value and DQ has an
awarenes that transcends the "intellectual level of awareness." While
I can agree that we can think of a "second tier" or  "MOQ perspective"
that can put these other levels of awareness into perspective, these
levels of awareness are nothing not at all Pirsig meant by his
evolutionary hierarchy of types of patterns of value. Though a "second
tier" may be needed for the idea of levels of awareness, no fifth
level is needed in the MOQ where the Pirsigian sense of a level is a
collection of all patterns of value of a given type rather than a
level of awareness.

Best,
Steve




On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:06 PM,  <mark_maxwell at talktalk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Squonk, I think you've been doing a great job explaining Pirsig's MOQ and why the SOL is an unnecessary perversion. It's great to have you back!
> In distinguishing the different MOQ levels (which I take to be types of patterns of value rather than levels of awareness, which I think may be Marsha's misunderstanding), I always liked Wim's suggestion that we consider how patterns are maintained/latched. Social patterns are maintained through unconscious copying of behaviour while intellectual patterns are maintained through unconscious copying of rationales for behaviour. What do you think?
>
> Hi Steve,
> ‘…intellectual patterns are maintained through unconscious copying of rationales for behaviour.’
> I’ve been on a long walk in the country today and am really feeling it now that I’m in a warm room with a steaming cup of tea to cheer me. Not sure if my brain is in order.
> Wim’s suggestion isn’t making me feel nauseous!
> I can see how the rules of symbol manipulation can be learned by rote and then applied when required. This seems ok to me.
> Also, I sometimes sympathise when Marsha speaks of awareness.
> But when i do sympathise, the moq begins to look more like panpsychism.
>
>
> Steve:
> Certainly your examples of intellect predating Socrates are also examples of rationales for behaviour selected based on intellectual quality as distinct from the patterns that these rationales deal which may be behaviours selected based on social quality (social patterns) or biological patterns, inorganic patterns, or other intellectual patterns. Intellect comes into play when we start asking "why?" What is striking to me about pre-intellectual texts such as the Bible is that explanations often use the word "because" yet have nothing recognizable as an intellectual rationale as in "And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done" or "Then Rachel said, "God has vindicated me; he has listened to my plea and given me a son." Because of this she named him Dan." Yet other times, we do see rationales that have some intellectual quality, so I think we even see a budding intellectual level (which is the collection of all intellectual patterns) even in the early Biblical writings to the extent that we can think of a single-cell as life.
> Best,
> Steve
> Squonk:
> I too have a sneaking suspicion that there are intellectual patterns to be found in Biblical texts. I think RMP specifically identified the ‘early’ texts, that would be Genesis?
> Genesis seems like a social story/myth to me, so RMP may have this right.
> Later Biblical texts may be more problematic and begin to indicate intellectual thought. These later texts are much younger than the older ones after all.
> All the best,
> squonk
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/