[MD] suspended in language

[X Acto]

Hello Matt,
Ron said:
Protagoras argues that experience is colored by the past,

which it is. The spectre of bias and prejudice the 
Pragmatists and
Pirsig contend with which aims them 
toward pre-intellectual or raw
experience as the arbiter 
of any "true" meaning.

Matt:
Ahhhh--I'm
beginning finally to see the way things take 
conceptual shape for you. 
This makes a lot more sense 
out of what you were saying about
"absolute" to Marsha.

My short re-coloring of the situation
(leaving correct 
interpretation of Pirsig to the side) is that: 1) some
of 
the classical pragmatists some of the time would have 
agreed with
you about "pre-intellectual or raw 
experience" as an "arbiter," but not
all of the time and 
2) there is still disagreement today about just
what role 
"raw experience" plays for pragmatism, but the brand 
of
pragmatism that I like (exemplified by Rorty and 
Stout) doesn't think
there _is_ a "spectre of bias and 
prejudice" and so we need no
arbiter.  I think this 
"spectre" you speak of is the same Platonic
scarecrow 
I spoke of.  That's the short thought.

Ron:
My own short thought is that it may be something unavoidable
If thats what you mean.

Ron said:
Relativism is a method of destroying bias assumption 
and prejudice not so much a philosphical view in it's own 
right to camp on.

Matt:
An interesting reconstrual of the elenchus as the origin 
of relativism, and as you elsewhere suggested, 
pragmatism.  But in the end, "relativism" doesn't seem 
like a good name for a method.

Ron:
Well no, for it seems as you say, to be born of a type of misconception.
and to use it is perhaps simply propagating that misconception.

Ron said:
Hello Matt, You are certainly more read on the subject of 
Pragmatism than I. It seemed to me based on what I 
read that Pragmatism seemed to come at the proposition 
of value meaning from an objective point of view. 
Perhaps because I read it with eyes already colored by 
Pirsigs work .To me, Pragmatism didn't venture into the 
justification for the primacy of social moral value just a 
kind of objective asessment of it's existence and part it 
plays in forming value judgements.

Matt:
I don't mean this as a slap, but given your overt 
proclivities to wikipedia, part of me can't help but think 
that in the end that might start holding you back.  I'm not 
sure what other kinds of material you like to explore, but 
I don't think wikipedia, and many free internet resources, 
should be used for much more than aides de memoire.

I'm not even sure how to evaluate a statement like 
"Pragmatism seemed to come at the proposition of value 
meaning from an objective point of view."  Too many of 
the terms are in flux for pragmatists, Pirsigian or 
otherwise, and none of the phrases really jive with the 
kinds of thing I understand about pragmatism.

Ron:
Not taken as a slap, and I do take wiki provisionally as support for my reading
I primarily use as a quick source for quotes.
but a better explaination may be that my reading has been limited to James 
in relation to his Pragmatic method.  I probably need to do some heavy reading
of Rorty Dewey and Royce to meet you on your own understanding so perhaps
talking about my opinions is an underdeveloped effort on my part, I am certainly
open to being schooled on the subject. I guess to be more precise, what I have
read of Pragmatism has been more an explaination of meaning.While I tend to
understand Pirsig as having certain justifications for particular types of meaning.
If I'm that far off base, than I have a way to go in understanding Pragmatism
more comprehensivly.

                     
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