[MD] The relativity of the MoQ

[Jan-Anders]

Good Morning Marsha and all

The experience of making my own bread is meditation for me and can lead 
to experience of Ultimate Reality.

No kidding this time.

Jan-Anders

> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 08:48:12 -0400
> From: "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ
> Message-ID: <000001ca2ef0$4f6b20d0$ee416270$@net>
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>
>
> Ham and Andre,
>
> I agree that meditation can lead to experiences of Ultimate Reality (DQ),
> and a few minute sip of such an experience can deeply alter the context of
> all experience.   
>
>
> Marsha 
>  
>  
>  
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Andre Broersen
> Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:56 AM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The relativity of the MoQ
>
> Ham to Andre, Ron, Platt, Marsha, and All --:
>
> >From then on, the discussion disintegrated into an argument
> over social polemics.
>
> Andre (the dreamer)
> Couldn't agree more Ham, that's when I got distracted.
>
> Ham:
> What is also undeniable, but missed in the dialectics, is that the split
> between "ultimate reality" and "experienced reality" is absolute.  That is,
> we cannot transport ourselves from an objective, relational world to
> metaphysical 'Oneness' by intellect, faith, or some mystic Sutra.  The
> division is existentially insurmountable. So that what we do in our
> "culture" or politics has no bearing on ultimate reality.  (Sorry Platt and
> Andre.)
>
> Andre:
> No need to apologise Ham. Just a few thoughts on this. I do not believe that
> the split (as you call it) between 'ultimate r' and 'experienced r' is
> necessarily absolute or remains absolute. We are still in the process
> of evolution. In this sense we are not human 'being' but human 'becoming'.
> And perhaps even the adjective 'human' will, one moon, disappear.
>
> 'We' have only been around for a few thousand years and have not evolved
> beyond the biological/ social and intellectual...yet. We still need
> nourishments and rely on sexual reproduction. We still need eachother and as
> our knowledge, through the resolution of paradoxes continues to deepen, our
> level of consciousness (or perhaps the quality thereof) may be measured in
> relation to these.
>
> But many, many people have experienced 'states' beyond the organic/social
> and intellectual. Near Death Experiencers for one and meditative (and drug
> induced) processes point to experiences that, to me, reduces/nullifies the
> absoluteness of the split you talk about.
>
> Maybe we are evolving toward one consciousness, who knows? I wouldn't
> foreclose on anything.
>
> All these so called 'mystical' experiences are simply too numerous to be
> mere subjective aberations. Within the MoQ these experiences are real. And
> they all lead to one conclusion.
>
> It seems to me Ham that we are perhaps not so far apart in our thinking.
> (imho) sometimes the language we use is awkward and I do not understand half
> your language.
> Don't start proselytising though, I'll stick to quality... and, you may
> consider the above a whole heap of bull anyway.
>
> Cheers
> Andre (continues the dream).
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