[MD] Boromir's Journey....and raskolnikov's

Tue Sep 22 15:35:36 PDT 2009

raskolnikov in crime and punishment goes through a hero's journey that is relevant to our times still. he begins as someone losing touch/affinity with the social reality of the day. he is an intelligent man, an educated man and he takes umbrage at the brutality, dishonesty and injustice of the social order  by descending to its depths and committing a brutal crime himself.... because he has reasoned that taking what one wants is the only rational morality. might is right.

his departure from the social norm is the hero's departure - his subsequent descent into despair, guilt, recrimination and madness form the trials that he must endure and face honestly - indeed towards the end he becomes his own worst accuser, the court eventually taking a more lenient view of his crime than he himself.

after time in prison (seven years) and the dismantling of his ego he is brought back to life...due to the pure love and example of a christian woman...the book ends with:

"In any case, what they were, all those torments of the past, all of them. The whole thing, even his sentence and exile, now seemed to him, on this first impulse, now seemed to him something alien and external, as though none of it had ever happened to him. He was, however, unable to give much prolonged or continuous thought to anything that evening, or to concentrate on any one idea; and anyway, if he had been able to, he would not have found his way to a solution of these questions in a conscious manner; now he could only feel. In place of dialectics life had arrived, and in his consciousness something of a wholly different nature must now work towards fruition.....

But at this point a new story begins—the story of  a man's gradual renewal, his gradual rebirth, his gradual transition from one world to another, of his growing acquantance with a hitherto completely unknown reality. This might constitute the theme of a new narrative - our present narrative is however at an end."

what it is that raskolnikov has gained is faith - faith in life. a feeling, a trust that there is some order operative beneath the silly man made orders of the day and, i would add,  that when one is aligned with this deeper order the silly, cruel man made orders lose their power - they are disarmed, circumvented and seen to be *also* an expression of the deeper order - they are integrated within a larger perspective.

--- On Wed, 23/9/09, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Received: Wednesday, 23 September, 2009, 5:02 AM

Ron,

It sounds like you are suggesting that quality equals desire.  I don't think
so because one can experience awareness without desire.

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:51 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

they danced around it

but I was wondering what you thought about it

it's been on my mind

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:35:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

Ron,

Krishnamurti and David Bohm might supply an answer.  

Marsha 

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:17 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

Marsha,
I sense we are close to something

this desire is before concepts of self

perhaps it is the desire of the creation of self

this reaching for betterness

perhaps it creates society and to function in a society
a self is required. A name, a label, symbol that stands for this collection
of intersecting patterns.

I ask this in reference to, at what point did this reaching become
misguided?
reaching implies time, a hope toward betterness.

why?

is it the nature of existing?

if it is, I think it would be helpful to find out.

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:47:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

Ron,

The statement 'to cease desiring' was not the answer to your question, but
among the listing of a number of different patterns to possibly discuss.
Besides, your question presumes a self to answer the question, and as I
already stated the quality (betterness) comes before the creation of a self
and object.  I really don't know how to answer such a question.  Quality is
better than nothing?  

Marsha 

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 12:57 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

marsha to the question "why desire betterness?:
 to cease
desiring...  

Ron:
the desire to cease desiring.

I think we are closing in on something.

this reaching.

is this the final desire to vanquish?

is acceptance of desire the way to disperse it?

to accept this reaching into the unknown? as
growth?
an acceptance of be-ing?

to be is to desire

Socrates said that philosophy was the preparation for death.

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:52 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

any you care to discuss

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:47:15 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

Who's reasoning (what self?) would you be asking about?

Marsha

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of X Acto
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:46 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

why desire betterness?

----- Original Message ----
From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 10:30:49 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Fwd: Boromir's Journey

"The MOQ does not rest on faith. In the MOQ faith is very low quality stuff,
a willingness to believe falsehoods."
  (RMP,Copleston)

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