[MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.

[markhsmit at aol.com]

Bo,

It is from you that I learn all about the MOQ.? My posts enable me

to do that.? I wonder about this thing called intelligence.? The way

an organism evolves, through trial and error, always trying to

best meet the needs of the environment.? Is this a lower

intelligence than what you are writing about.? The intelligence

of a mountain to shape itself in a way to maximize it's

existence.? Is this what your are talking about.? The way in

which leaves grow extremely logical patterns to enable

the absorption of energy and transfer of water, is this the

intelligence you are talking about.? The way in which the 

neurons of the human brain interconnect to form patterns

in response to the environment and enable communication

between individuals for common purposes, is this the 

intelligence.? Is the intelligence of a society somehow

different from the intelligence of a herd of wildebeest on

the Tanzanian plains?? Don't think so.



Human intelligence is nothing compared to the intelligence

of the subatomic world in its ability to create, nothing in

comparison to the ever evolving cosmology of the universe.



Don't get fooled by what you call human intelligence.? It is

governed by very subtle fluctuations of ions in the brain.

Totally out of your control.

Perhaps a class in neurobiology will bring you down to this

earth.



All these levels of increasing self-importance.? All that I

hear is the Ego.? Perhaps a class in Freudian 

psychology will put you at ease.



Then again, it's good to think that somehow you are better

than a rock, if that is what you need to give purpose.






-----Original Message-----
From: skutvik at online.no
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2009 2:03 am
Subject: Re: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.




William Blake the Second or Mark Smith

22 Sep. you wrote:

> Interesting Bodvar that you would put REASON on such a
> pedestal.??It?implies?that?you?are?fully?committed?to your reason, as
> being somehow above other forms of thought. 

The 4th level is MOQ's highest and IMO "intellect is the ability to 
distinguish between what's objective and what's subjective (the S/O 
distinction)  and - finally - that this is  REASON or RATIONALITY, so 
no wonder  I put it very high, only subordinate to the overarching  
DQ/SQ configuration.   

There is no "thinking" (as mind-patterns) in the MOQ because there is 
no MIND (different from matter. There is INTELLIGENCE which is 
used by the biological level for its survival purpose and by the social 
level for its common cause purpose and - finally - by intellect for it 
rational purpose. That intellect's purpose is best goes without saying.   

> It is a manner of thinking that creates a reality, but it is far from
> the only one. Take your reason to the source?of?its
> foundation,?and?then?go?beyond?if?you?can.??You?may?find
> that?this?thing?called?REASON?is?simply?a?convention?for
> communicating?and?existing?as?a?group,?nothing?more. 

I know you try to "improve my ways" but don't worry dear Mark I'm not 
fooled by Reason/Intellect/SOM, my focus is at the MOQ from where 
the level context is seen. 

> Perhaps?you?are?so?entrenched?that?you?can?not?imagine
> anything?outside?your?reason,?your?interconnected?neurons
> which?create?patterns?from?your?interaction?with?the?world.
> It is nothing Glorious and Godlike. ?But perhaps it is
> best to stay that way, otherwise others may think you
> as mad.

This is what I get for promoting the MOQ - not the trendy newageish 
nonsense that you obviously subscribes to. OK you may be a nice guy, 
but try to learn some more about the MOQ.

Bodvar





 




 
> Cheers,
> Willblake2
> 
> On Sep 22, 2009, at 2:07:08 AM, skutvik at online.no wrote:
> From:   skutvik at online.no
> Subject:    Re: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship.
> Date:   Septem
ber 22, 2009 2:07:08 AM PDT
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Marsha and Group
> 
> 21 Sep. you wrote:
> 
> > I certainly understand you wanting to keep religion separate, and it
> > does seem the mystic experience is often linked to religious
> > traditions, but it doesn't have to be so. I've read that even the
> > Dalai Lama, in his efforts to bring together East and West, has
> > warned to be attentive to what is insight/wisdom and what is
> > cultural tradition, which are often entangled. The Buddhist
> > traditions are beneficial because they are not theistic, and their
> > purpose is to bring enlightenment (however that word may be
> > understood or misunderstood) to benefit all.?
> 
> I started my post by saying that religion as something defying reason?
> only occurred after "reason" i.e. the intellectual level. And I'm
> afraid? this your introducing Dalai Lama brings MOQ into the murky
> Buddhist? waters I want to "save it from" - sorry for being so
> implacable. He? speaks about "insight-wisdom versus cultural
> tradition, and "insight- wisdom" may match "what defies reason" but
> "cultural tradition" in? Tibet is not our Western REASON.?
> 
> Tibetan cultural tradition was/is all about achieving the mystical?
> experience while Western Reason is all about preventing such which? is
> dismissed as hysteria, mental illness .. etc.?
> 
> Back to the MOQ. Before Reason - i.e. intellect - the social reality?
> ruled and there was no S/O (mystic/reason) distinction (why it was?
> regarded as Quality itself by Pirsig) Yet, the MOQ is not a return to
> the? pre S/O (social reality) it's a reunion of Subject/Object beyond
> intellect.? So, I do not particularly want to involve Orientalism
> because this may -? as Pirsig and this discussion has touched on - be
> a culture that has? gone through the intellectual stage, but not
> developed it into a SOM,? before going on to a Quality-like stage.This
> creates OUR East/West? chasm. Dalai Lama may understand the West, but
> we only sees? "mysticism" over there.?
> 
>
 Yours profoundly?
> 
> Bodvar
> 
> 
> 
> 
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