[MD] a view

[John Carl]

Marsha and Arlo,

I think morality is served, not when social patterns are erased, but when
they are examined objectively (intellectually)

This constant re-evaluation of them in the light of quality, is what keeps
them honest.

But the only way to re-evaluated intellectual patterns, is this thing of
"killing them" as Buddha suggests, or "dying to them" as Paul of Tarsus
suggests, in the faith that higher intellectual patterning will reformulate
the mental etch-a-sketch.

Is one way of looking at it.

But I really liked the dialogue you two create here in looking fresshly at
the old formulations.

JC




On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Arlo Bensinger wrote:
>
> > [Marsha]
> > I think it is a verse written for the individual.  I think many social
> patterns should dissolve.  I interpret the word 'sustain' to means 'to keep
> from giving way', so I  translate the first 2 lines as:  While not letting
> the biological and social levels collapse, let intellectual patterns
> dissolve' and morality will be served.   Hopefully, this answers the
> remaining questions too.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > I guess my question remains why social patterns should not be dissolved
> as well? If I use your words here, I'd offer something like this instead.
> >
> > While sustaining just enough biological patterns to preserve your life
> > Dissolve all intellectual and social patterns.
> > Dissolve them completely
> > And then follow Dynamic Quality
> > And morality will be served.
>
>
> I have no problem with the importance of the family and
> community in sustaining life.  I have never said otherwise.
> But I do think that many social patterns have outgrown their
> usefulness.  A long time ago I read 'The Social Construction
> of Reality', by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann.  It
> address such issues.  I bet you've read it.
>
>
> > The first line I can see, because dying while meditating or taking peyote
> will likely do you no good.
>
> It's Saint Marsha.  I do not drink, smoke, or take drugs, not
> even the prescribed type.  This is not an issue for me.
>
>
> >
> > But the second line I'd propose makes more sense (considering, again,
> Pirsig's view on the morality of the hippie movement), if we say that in
> that drive to get to the Zero-Point, we let all static patterns that may
> effect our ability to see "something new" pass away. Social patterns like
> religion must be left go off as well, as should social roles like what it
> means to be a mother or uncle. All preconceived notions (patterns) that
> effect our "vision" should be left to dissolve away (I do like that
> metaphor).
>
> This dissolution I think is for the moment.  I am not talking of a
> lobotomy.
> There might be a moment when an intellectual pattern is very appropriate,
> if so I'm quite sure it will prevail.   The rest of your paragraph seem
> presented for the sake of the argument, but I think such speculation is
> a waste of time.  It would be better to be mindful of the flow of patterns,
> than to let the flow of patterns control the situation.
>
>
> >
> > And, like I mentioned, it makes this statement true for all people, not
> just those with "relaxed" social codes.
> >
> > The next question would be, "And then what?" What do we do when we come
> out of the Zero-Point, after we've been effected by some Dynamic insight?
> I'd submit we re-construct our social and intellectual patterns accordingly.
> "Killing" them may take us to that moment of Zen, but its what we do with
> enlightenment coming back that makes it count. IMHO.
>
> This seems like too much speculation.  What if you awaken and realize that
> when you do harm, it is yourself you are harming?  What if you begin to see
> their is no separation between you and I.   What if we discover that our
> present
>  subject/object ideas of reality are nonsense?  I, at least, like my
> speculations
> better.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> ___
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>