[MD] MOQ Recursion

[skutvik at online.no]

Arlo, DMB, All.

4 Aug.:

Arlo to dmb:
> Those who fear "recursion" seem to think that affixing a new level
> above intellect solves their recursive nightmares, but I think you can
> see where this will go, it does not. If we construe a new level, say
> "the MOQ level" above the intellectual level, and say "the levels are
> MOQ patterns of value", one can simply ask, "what type of pattern of
> value is the MOQ level itself"?

It's not just "recursion", but sheer logical inconsistencies and the MOQ 
to become something like a ..... The intellectual level IS MOQ's 
property and can by no twist of logic "contain" the MOQ, unless SOM's 
still rules and that the 4th. level is SOM's mind, it already contains 
everything in SOM's paradox-strewn reality and who cares if one more 
is added. All in all, the trouble MOQ has had from day one IS that the 
SOM isn't "properly buried" but still hovers around and MOQ's Q-
inorganic = "matter" and Q-intellect = "mind" ....and that the biolological 
and social will constitute a bridge between them. After all Pirsig 
peddles this harnonization between the two. Only SOM = Q-intellect 
itself resolves all conceivable paradoxes. This is no "level above 
intellect" as you love to present it as.     

dmb says:
> Right, people suffering from this recursive nightmare would do well to
> simply wake up and smell the coffee. The idea of a new level above the
> intellectual level is completely ridiculous, don't you think? 

If you rub my back, I'll rub yours. ;-)

> The levels are supposed to divide everything that would be found in the
> most complete encyclopedia. It is a conceptual scheme that organizes
> everything we know of. Adding a new level to this is, in effect, adding
> a category of reality that does not exist in any encyclopedia. The only
> that that is NOT described by the four levels is DQ itself, is the
> directly lived experience. 

Encyclopedias are intellect-as-SOM's ordering of things, and if MOQ 
slavishly copy  this, making its Q-levels identical to science's "logies" 
it's shot down before it takes off. What use is this "matter + life = 
objects, social + intellect = subjects"  for intellect-as-SOM? Zero point 
zero, zero.  

> This fake problem is a result of thinking that the levels ARE reality
> itself rather than an intellectual description. 

Fake problem my foot! You condemn SOM's objective part, i.e. "reality 
itself" - but then swallows its subjective part "intellectual description". 
See, SOM still rules over your quasi-moq.

> And within that description, Pirsig asserts the idea that there is more
> than one way to describe these things. But you know all this already,
> Arlo. I'm just lending some support. 

More than the DQ/SQ way to describe "things"? I smell the 
"Quality/MOQ" meta-metaphysics. The MOQ have no easy time with 
the latter-day Pirsig turning against it at uneven intervals and you 
crypto-SOMists working overtime to destroy it. Phew. 

Bodvar