[MD] MOQ Recursion

[skutvik at online.no]

Andre 

11 Aug. you wrote 

> So the MOQ IS the Quality Reality for you? The MOQ IS the
> 'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum', the Tao, the Void? That is:
> not what is written about it...but what...metaphysically
> 'experienced'?

The static levels are DQ  "hardened" into SQ. There is no Quality 
"hardened" into MOQ, that's the %&`?# "Quality/MOQ". 

Bodvar before:
> > The SOM-MOQ transition is just as unlikely yet like life emerged in its
> > time the MOQ is now in the process of establishing itself  in spite of
> > intellect-as-SOM's resistance  ... you are part of that resistance

Andre:
> If you follow the MOQ classification of the emergence of the levels
> then you are suggesting a level above the intellectual level. Since
> the four levels are all there is this gets very messy and therefore I
> resist. 

No level above or below, but there is a level-like struggle between the 
MOQ and its highest static level. The same that exists between the 
static levels where all  once were  "top notch" and fiercely resisted a 
development on top of itself - What is messy is an "intellectual level" 
that contains the MOQ, this is is just old MIND and SOM is back. 

> Of course you are forced into this because you have claimed
> the intellectual level as being capable of only SOL. I dispute this
> and many have gone before me disputing this. I would also suggest to
> you that the MOQ is NOT out of SOM. But I have suggested this before
> and you won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Yes, I am forced by logic.
 
Andre:
> Let's unpack this Bodvar: 'In SOM's rule...' What do you mean? Who or
> what ruled what or whom? 

Before the MOQ!

> '...the MOQ was just another philosophical idea...' Since we are
> talking MOQ wouldn't it be better to turn this upside down and say:
> from the MOQ perspective SOM was just a philosophical idea...the
> rational basis upon which it was founded has been found inadequate and
> therefore has been expanded to include... (much like Einstein's
> relativity as an expansion of Newton's theory?) 

Now, after more than ten years, the true MOQ has slowly percolated 
...etc. we finally begin to see SOM in MOQ's perspective (its own 4th. 
level), but some still  defend SOM by wanting the MOQ to remain a 
mere intellectual - mind -  pattern.    

>   '...the MOQ...devoured its host'
 
> Well, 'devour' is normally a biological function but at the
> intellectual level Pirsig has been at pains to make clear that the MOQ
> 'contradicts SOM's denial that value exists in the real world. The MOQ
> says it does. Thus the MOQ is an expansion of existing knowledge, not
> a denial of existing knowledge'(annot. 58). It has to do with the root
> expansion of rationality which Mr. Pirsig performed Bodvar.

I deny much of what the annotating Pirsig says and even more what 
Andre manages to extract from his annotations. The MOQ definitely 
contradicts SOM, but  SOM does NOT deny values, it merely says that 
they are part of its subjective realm. The MOQ does NOT expand 
"existing knowledge" is says that the existing knowledge - SOM - is its 
own highest static VALUE. This way it devours the whole bloody MOQ 
leaving no loose ends anywhere.

And until you understand this most crucial point.

Bodvar