[MD] Waving goodbye to particles

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[John]
For if the MoQ is primarily artifactual in nature, as you claim, then there is
a good reason for those voices of rejection and disappointment that have been
heard on this list.  As a given metaphysical system, it has holes, I'm sure.

[Arlo]
Sure it does, as this is why/how it evolves. Its a stable pattern moving
towards "betterness", through dialogue, exposure to other thought systems,
contextualization, etc.  "The Metaphysics of Quality" is what we categorize
those stable patterns emanating from Pirsig's initial pursuit of Quality, his
attempt to formalize and define what Quality IS.

[John]
But if it is primarily processional in nature, as I claim, then it's weaknesses
and inadequacies are open invitations to improve it, to make it better and to
actively keep it evolving.

[Arlo]
John, this is the nature of ALL intellectual patterns. They are ALL in
continual and evolutionary negotiation. "The MOQ" is not unique in this regard,
it is the fundamental nature of intellectual patterns.

[Arlo previously]
(1) ALL intellectual patterns are equally dynamic, they are ALL evolving
dialogically

[John]
That's the equivalent of saying that all intellectual patterns are equally
valuable. 

[Arlo]
?? Not at all. Some persist, some fade away. But the point is that ALL
intellectual patterns are equally built upon dialogic-evolutionary ground. As
this moves forward, higher-quality patterns tend to "persist" longer, they may
not change as rapidly at certain points in the historical dialogue, and some
may feel "entrenched" , but Pirsig's ideas are no more or no less open to
Dynamic Quality than any other intellectual pattern out there.

[Arlo previously]
2) the voice of the author does not hinder this, but it encourages it

[John]
The voice of the author has many functions, some helpful, some hindrance.

[Arlo]
The author's voice is simply one more voice in the dialogue, admittedly very
often a respected and trusted voice, but how on earth do you think an author
clarifying or supporting what HE thinks hinders a dialogue where other people
are doing the same?

No, this "Papal Bull" nonsense is itself the only "bull". I read people because
sometimes the offer insights that I hadn't thought of, and other times I reject
what they say. 

I mean, why is Bo's voice valuable to the evolution of Pirsig's ideas, but
Pirsig's voice would be a hinderance? Do you really think people would not be
critical of what Pirsig says? Would YOU not be?

[Arlo previously]
(3) the ideas expressed in Pirsig's metaphysics are stable patterns emanating
from the wake of, call it, "metaphysicing".

[John]
Call it metaphysicing?  Let's not.  You did get the memo on kludge, I know.

[Arlo]
Call it what you want, "the pursuit of Quality", but the ideas expressed in
Pirsig's book are the stable patterns of intellectual value emanating from this
process. 

[John]
But more to the point, there is probably no such thing in the whole world as a
truly "stable" pattern.  And this is even moreso with intellectual patterns. 

[Arlo]
This was my point.

[John]
But there is a formation of a growing pattern, that is dynamic, and yet
continues the pattern started, but is changing and evolving.

[Arlo]
Right, and this is Pirsig and you and me and everyone else involved in
intellectual dialogue about these ideas. 

[John]
So I think it's pragmatically more useful to think of a tree as an artifact,
and the MoQ as a process. 

[Arlo]
No, John, its pragmatically more useful to think of a tree as a stable pattern
of value and the evolution towards Quality as the process.

The Metaphysics of Quality is a stable pattern emanating from this intellectual
pursuit of Quality.

[John]
And I certainly don't agree that other metaphysical systems are equally
open-ended to their own evolutionary growth.

[Arlo]
What? You are focusing on a voice rather than the dialogue. I know of very few
metaphysical systems that are not continually changing, being renegotiated,
argued for and against, adapting or failing. 

The larger dialogue is the entire metaphysical edifice of human thought, of
which Pirsig's ideas are a PART, a voice in the ongoing dialogue, said in
response to what others have said in the past, and anticipating what others may
say in response in the future. 

[John]
But a metaphysics is sometimes more than a mere definition. The MoQ is such an
one. 

[Arlo]
I disagree. The Metaphysics of Quality is not more than it is, it points out to
something more, for sure. But "it" is a map. A tool. A guidebook. Ideas
expressed about the nature of reality that run counter to the dominant way of
looking at things. 

[John]
It's not just an intellectual exercise, but claim to try and do more than
merely be a correct artifact in philosophological academe.  The MoQ is also
about saving the world from SOM

[Arlo]
You mean its a Superhero!? And here I thought it was Pirsig that wanted to
rescue the intellectual level from the dominant "SOM" paradigm, and his ideas,
the Metaphysics of Quality, is an intellectual tool he crafted to do just that.