[MD] Speed of Lighting, Roar of thunder...

[Krimel]

[Magnus]
You've been trying to push this ... 3 times now, but, well...

[Krimel]
Third time was charmed. Thanks for your response.

> [Krimel]
> 1. Shit Happens.

[Magnus]
That's right, can't argue with that.

[Krimel]
One down...

> [Krimel]
> 2. Quality is Chaos

[Magnus]
Nope. Quality is reality.

[Krimel]
True enough but reality is fundamentally chaotic.

> [Krimel]
> 3. Quality (Chaos) has two aspects DQ (uncertainty) SQ (certainty)

[Magnus]
Well, from a human perspective, from which you see the world, that's 
pretty correct. But if you step out into the real world, it's more like 
being and becoming.

[Krimel]
I am all about the power of multiple points of view but it really is hard
for me to think of a point of view in do not involve maters of certainty vs
uncertainty. As I have pointed out several times previously the new field of
behavioral economics sees our ability to judge the certainty or uncertainty
of things as a sense, a biological property of our species like our ability
estimate time and distance.

But if I step into "the real world," where would I be? Who would I be but
me? Whose point of view would I be taking if not my own?

> [Krimel]
> 4. Value (meaning) is reduction of uncertainty.
>     (That is, meaning results from and results in,
>     our ability to create and manipulate static quality)

[Magnus]
Meaning is a mapping from an intellectual pattern to another pattern. 
But since you're in the human perspective, everything you see is 
transformed into an intellectual pattern and you don't acknowledge the 
reality of the original experience that created that intellectual 
pattern. So, to you, value and meaning becomes entangled. But they are 
really not.

[Krimel]
I think of Value as valence. It is what attracts or repels us. Uncertainty
scares the crap out of us. Quite a few years ago Bill Moyers interviewed the
religious historian, Elaine Pagels about her personal response to losing her
husband and her son. She said it help her to understand why people turned to
prayer. She said the feeling of powerlessness people feel in the face of a
world that really is beyond their control was so horrifying that we will
cling to any excuse to escape it. That to me, is the power and the horror of
uncertainty. I see it as the common thread that connects the function of
religions like Buddhism to Christianity

As I said I am all about multiple points of view so if you could suggest a
better one than the human one I'd be grateful. 

> [Krimel]
> 5. Biological organisms are the meaning (SQ) that evolution
>     derives from chaos.

[Magnus]
I didn't know you were religious?

No, 5 is just a consequence of 1.

[Krimel]
I'm not religious but apparently repetitious. If a point is worth making I
suppose it's worth making twice. I mean only that biology is the result of
the working out of static inorganic relationships. It is the constant
negotiation of force and matter colliding in the here and now. Predictable
relationships forming into pools of certainty and interacting to creating
new orders of uncertainty through their interrelationships, the ebb and flow
of emergence.

> [Krimel]
> 6. As such organisms, we create SQ from the DQ around us or to use
>     James' terms, we derive concepts from experience

[Magnus]
We not only derive concepts, we also *experience*. Those experiences are 
still real, even before we conceptualize them. SQ patterns exist outside 
our concepts of them.

[Krimel]
I highly recommend James with regard to this. It's free. It's downloadable.
It's readable:

http://www.archive.org/details/someproblemsphil00jameuoft 

I found using the pdf version most effective. Even though it is a scanned
copy, at my house it is searchable.