[MD] Speed of Lighting, Roar of thunder...

[Krimel]

[Magnus]
I'm confused, first you agree with Frank who said:

[Krimel]
Yes, you are but I think that's because this is confusing. After 10 or so
years of having it explained to him Bo never got it, after all.

[Magnus]
But now, you say that the universe did exist before anyone had 
conceptualized it.

[Krimel]
Isn't this the point of Pirsig's gravity example? Gravity is a signifier
that points to a set of patterns in the world. I do believe that things fell
to earth prior to Newton and at more or less that same accelerating rate
that he clocked. But the concept of gravity was a new thing under the sun
when he wrote it down.

[Magnus]
Does it still exist outside of our concepts of it? Or did it seize to 
exist when we conceptualized it?

[Krimel]
I would say yes that something undefined is going on whether we see it or
not or whether we have concepts about it or not or whether our concepts are
right or wrong. Shit still happens regardless of whether or how we think
about it.

[Magnus]
I think you need to decide which. You seem to be taking both sides now.

[Krimel]
I decided long ago but despite what anyone tells you I hold open the
possibility of changing my view. Never-the-less this is one of my chief
bitches against the AWGI faction.