[MD] Social level for humans only

[MarshaV]

On Aug 27, 2010, at 1:26 PM, John Carl wrote:

> Marsha,
> 
> 
> 
>> Men do not experience what is like to be a woman(mother) from a biological
>> point-of-view, nor do they know the experience of being socialized as a
>> woman(mother).
> 
> 
> Right.  And likewise, women don't understand what it is like to be a man
> from a biological/social point of view.  

Right, never said otherwise.



> But I read a book by a girl who
> dressed like a boy and interacted as male for a year and wrote about it and
> at the end of the year she was just about suicidal.  Men don't get the same
> kinds of social affirmation and care as women.  No woman can fully
> understand the angst and agony of widespread prejudice against males.

Way too much generalization for me to accept.   Certainly one woman's 
experience is interesting, but so.  All women don't need affirmation and 
caring, for Pete's sake.  What a lot of malarky.  

I'd love to hear of the widespread prejudice against males.  Please 
explain?   


>> It seems to me that restricted intellectual patterns have been built to
>> define 'women' and than believed to be true.  I sense it as psychological
>> foot-binding.
>> 
>> 
> Perhaps.  But what we men suffer is a sort of "social foot-binding" that
> goes even deeper than mere intellect.  Since the affairs of the heart are
> more immediately real to us than the affairs of the head.

Probably, but I haven't been presenting the stereotyping as real.  Or some 
ridiculous 'Women are blah, blah blah...'    First you present motherhood 
as if you know what such an experience might be, and then you pass judgements 
on what is a good mother.   



>> What would women be like if their native intelligence was allowed to
>> develop freely?  I don't know.  I don't blame "men", but suggest that the
>> Church of Religion and the Church of Reason, both based on masculine
>> principles/power, have been responsible for the distortion.  Why?  Maybe
>> fear, or power, or who knows?
>> 
> 
> Perhaps resentment over the fact that when it comes down to it, women hold
> the real power in society.  Men usually make their competitive climb up the
> ladder of social success, for one reason - and that's to attract a mate.

Right.  If you believe every pattern fed to you, it's a good thing you do not have
a television. 


> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> My question might be how do women recover what is their unique power?
> 
> 
> My answer is they recover their power by ceasing to repress and deny it.

I didn't really mean that kind of power, maybe autonomy would be a better 
word. 


> Most of the "feminist" movement seemed to me to be all about the
> masculinazation of females.  It should have been called the "masculinist"
> movement, for it took the dominating masculine ideals and transferred them
> to the realm of the feminine.  Big mistake, imo.

This sounds like some kind of whining based on false generalization.  


>> See this is where my inquiry remains open.  I have no easy solution and
>> resent being tossed easy and distorted cliches.
> 
> 
> You and me both, Marsha.  I resent the way men are objectified and
> misunderstood by women, treated as walking paychecks, cannon fodder... I'm
> sure you've heard this before.  

I do know understand the walking paycheck reference.  I had a career.
   

> My one real complaint about women vs men, is
> that so often it seems like women don't question their own point of view, AS
> a point of view, but assume its THE point of view.  Where men seem to be
> able to express more open-mindedness and understanding of difference.

 You got to be kidding!!!   


>> This may not represent something that is a pressing issue for you.  It is
>> for me, and maybe like I understand the MoQ to be a bridge between the East
>> and West, I wonder if the MoQ might also be a bridge between the masculine
>> and the feminine.  I don't see them as the same; women haven't fared better
>> in the East.
>> 
>> 
> Good.  I agree completely.  I think the innate duality of our species cries
> out for reconciliation.  In fact, I'd say from time immemorial it's been
> THHEEEE problem.  And also corresponding somewhat to the romantic/classic
> nature of intellect - the whole Yin/Yang thing.

Socialized patterns, not an external nature.   I've read more than a few books that 
you've recommended.  Read one for me:  'The Social Construction of Reality: A 
Treatise in the Sociology of Knowledge' by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann
If you cannot get the concept of patterns, this book might offer help from a different 
angle.
 

Yours,
Marsha 



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