[MD] Stuck on a Torn Slot

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[John]
I pretty much agree with you, Arlo, dmb and all who oppose the SOL assertion
that SOM=4th level.  As you know, I just wish we had a better term for it than
"intellect". 

[Arlo]
I have a friend who used the expression "curious inquiry" to describe the sort
of meta-rational foundation that I see as the "intellectual level". But I think
the problem is really that "intellect" is wrongly associated with the type of
classical rationality described in ZMM, and while Pirsig fought to correct
this, associations with the term linger.

[John]
I'm not sure  what point Arlo is making with Toynbee/Campbell's "reborn",
except that its just a process that occurs naturally as cultures create
civilizations which grow old and die and there's really nothing to be done, in
the end.

[Arlo]
Sorry, I thought that would come across clearly. Toynbee's statement indicates
that "saving ailing cultures" is a fool's quest, that the way forward is
through a death/birth event. Sure, we can put band-aids on things and slow the
bleeding, but ultimately an ailing culture will die. And that is what should
happen. 

"Schism in the soul, schism in the body social will not be resolved by... even
by the most realistic, hardheaded work to weld together again the deteriorating
elements. Only birth can conquer death..." (Toynbee)

[Ron]
In that root meaning DQ or Quality in it's totality to me, is best described as
betterness, destruction is embedded in this betterness it is part of the good.
It is part of being.

[Arlo]
I think this is precisely right. The Hindu Trimurti are really a triadic
oneness, and a lot of Westerners have trouble understanding why people would
worship Shiva. The Occidental traditions have, I think, relegated the
destructive element to a "satan" or evil figure who is at odds with the
Creator. I think if you delve into the Gnostic tradition, you'll see more of
the Hindu inter-relatedness, but this is lost on those operating within the
exoteric paradigm. 

Pirsig quoted Thoreau's statement, "You never gain something but that you lose
something", and I think this captures the sentiment exactly. 

[John]
Sometimes we shun more choices because we're so entirely satisfied with the
status quo, (sq!) that we've got and we don't appreciate at all the destructive
aspects of DQ, or see betterness at all in those aspects.  But I agree with you
both, it is there.

[Arlo]
You have to empty your tea cup if you want more tea.