[MD] Stuck on a Torn Slot

[John Carl]

Arlo,

[John]
> I'm not sure  what point Arlo is making with Toynbee/Campbell's "reborn",
> except that its just a process that occurs naturally as cultures create
> civilizations which grow old and die and there's really nothing to be done,
> in
> the end.
>
> [Arlo]
> Sorry, I thought that would come across clearly. Toynbee's statement
> indicates
> that "saving ailing cultures" is a fool's quest, that the way forward is
> through a death/birth event. Sure, we can put band-aids on things and slow
> the
> bleeding, but ultimately an ailing culture will die. And that is what
> should
> happen.
>
> "Schism in the soul, schism in the body social will not be resolved by...
> even
> by the most realistic, hardheaded work to weld together again the
> deteriorating
> elements. Only birth can conquer death..." (Toynbee)
>
>
John:

Yes, I got the point you were trying to make; I just don't get the point of
that point in that advocating fatalism always seems so pointless to me.  Get
my point?

The way I look at it is that intellectual analysis of trends in society
doesn't guarantee change, but it does make change possible.  I think of big
social happenings as waves which can smash you, or you can surf them.  You
only have power to position yourself in relation to the wave, you certainly
can't stop it.  But when enough people see and position themselves in
relation to a wave of change, their collective response becomes itself a new
wave.




> [Ron]
> In that root meaning DQ or Quality in it's totality to me, is best
> described as
> betterness, destruction is embedded in this betterness it is part of the
> good.
> It is part of being.
>
> [Arlo]
> I think this is precisely right. The Hindu Trimurti are really a triadic
> oneness, and a lot of Westerners have trouble understanding why people
> would
> worship Shiva. The Occidental traditions have, I think, relegated the
> destructive element to a "satan" or evil figure who is at odds with the
> Creator. I think if you delve into the Gnostic tradition, you'll see more
> of
> the Hindu inter-relatedness, but this is lost on those operating within the
> exoteric paradigm.
>
>
John:

I agree Arlo, with your portrayal of the normal religious viewpoint of
"satan causes destruction", but I actually take issue with that viewpoint.
My  perspective  is that when you follow the bible story through the ages,
it's usually a story of Jehovah smiting civilizations and bringing them
down.  A lot of what happens in the old testament, is great social systems
being built up by men in their pride, and taken down by God over time.  When
viewed in this light then, the great controversy between God and Satan is
enacted through Satan's love of man-in-rebellion and God's seeming
indifference to our lofty aspirations and towering structures.  Something
you don't get in the sunday school view of "Satan hates us and God loves us"
which is something I've often pointed out  doesn't make sense.  Satan loves
us too, ya know.  It's just that he loves us as part of his cause, whereas
God loves us for his.  Think of two warring generals, they both love their
own  souldiers, right?

I'm not real popular in sunday school classes, for this and many other
reasons.