[MD] Intellectual honesty

Sun Jul 11 15:19:13 PDT 2010

  Cheers Ian

On 11/07/2010 22:58, Ian wrote:
> Still spot on Horse.
> Ian
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 11, 2010, at 20:38, Horse <horse at darkstar.uk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve, Dan, DMB, Ron, John, Matt, Platt and anyone else who's 
>> interested
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/07/2010 02:25, Steven Peterson wrote:
>>> Steve:
>>> If those supporting Horse's action don't think Bo ought to be banned
>>> then I am as confused as Matt is about what administrative action we
>>> are talking about here. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah...I agree that Bo is
>>> all these flavors of horrible (and probably also a pretty good guy),
>>
>> The impression I get is that no-one (myself included) wants to see Bo 
>> removed from MD. Which is good - Bo is liked by many on the forum and 
>> none of us want it to come to the point where Bo is removed. I know I 
>> don't anyway. But what is required is that Bo stops repeating what, 
>> for most, is the bleeding obvious. I.e. that Pirsig is either the 
>> originator of the SOL or that he supports it in any way.
>>
>> As both yourself and Matt have pretty much stopped reading what Bo 
>> posts to the forum (a luxury I don't have if I want to be a good 
>> administrator/moderator) you may have missed a number of people 
>> asking Bo to 'shut the fuck up' and to stop being, as many correctly 
>> see it, intellectually dishonest.
>>
>>> but what specific administrative action are we talking about? Is it...
>>>
>>> 1) a new forum rule where anyone claiming that SOL is Pirsig's idea
>>> risks being banned?
>>
>> Not a rule that will go on the website but a moderator request that 
>> will have the same effect. See comments below.
>>
>>> 2) a administrative request that Bo shut the hell up about SOL for a 
>>> while?
>>
>> Tried that - didn't work! See comments below.
>> Also, please note that I'm not saying that there can be no discussion 
>> of the SOL - just that it is not Pirsig's idea or supported by Pirsig.
>>
>>> 3) a specific threat leveled at Bo that he will be banned if he in
>>> particular continues to say that SOL was Pirsig's idea?
>>
>> Not banned - removed from the list. See below
>>
>>> 4) something else, like Bo will be banned if he continues to try to
>>> woo every newbie that comes along by flattering them and telling them
>>> about how they have blessedly managed to stumble upon the Great
>>> Insight?
>>
>> See below.
>>
>>
>> There are specific rules that relate to the forum which can be viewed 
>> on moq.org and there are the general rules of any mailing list which 
>> are that the list admin/moderator should keep some sort of order, try 
>> and sort out member disputes and a whole bunch of other 
>> admin/moderator type tasks. There is also a general rule that the 
>> admin/moderators decision is final.
>> So what options do I have as moderator if, after asking someone to 
>> stop doing something or behaving in a way that I think is incorrect, 
>> they refuse and carry on as if I had said nothing? As far as I can 
>> see I have three choices:
>>
>> 1) Do nothing
>> 2) Moderate each incoming post from the offending member and only 
>> pass those that I think are suitable
>> 3) Remove the member from the list
>>
>> If I do 1) I'm not doing my job properly, which I take seriously, so 
>> that's not an option I would accept.
>> If I do 2) I'll have have to spend ridiculous amounts of time not 
>> only checking posts for inappropriate content but also having 
>> arguments from all and sundry that whatever I do is wrong and 
>> censorious and that I'm an evil jack-booted bastard. I don't accept 
>> this option either as I have far better things to do with my life 
>> than waste time in pointless arguments.
>> Which leaves me with 3) and is the option I have chosen. Also 
>> remember that removal from the list isn't necessarily permanent. If a 
>> member agrees to stop whatever it was that I asked them to stop they 
>> can come back onto the list. This has happened before.
>>
>> If you know of other options then please let me know.
>>
>> I've opted for 3 because this gives me a chance to stop offending 
>> behaviour without having to waste time in pointless discussions.
>> Which, in my opinion, is what I've been doing for the last couple of 
>> weeks and which I don't intend to continue.
>> Bo has been asked to stop one particular thing. If he chooses not to 
>> do so he will be removed from the list. If anyone else chooses to 
>> continue the behaviour Bo has been asked to stop, the same thing 
>> happens. Very simple.
>>
>> In addition to what I've said above, I would also repeat more or less 
>> what I said in a previous post:
>>
>> It would be a good idea to allow newcomers to settle into the forum 
>> for a few weeks instead of, figuratively, leaping on them as soon as 
>> they are through the forum door and have their coats off and regale 
>> them with the MoQ according to Bo. Consider this an administrative 
>> request and have the good manners to allow new members some breathing 
>> space and settling in time.
>> I also think it would be a good idea that if an argument has gone on 
>> for a certain length of time or number of posts and is getting 
>> absolutely nowhere then I should and will call a time-out to all 
>> involved for a cooling off and reflection period. I will try and be 
>> polite and reasonable about this and will expect those involved to 
>> respect my decision, live with it and not give me a hard time about 
>> it or make stupid accusations
>>
>>
>>> None of us think that Bo's SOL thesis is worth a darn and wish he
>>> would stop harping on it, but what action are you defending here? I
>>> thought it was 1) at first, but maybe it is 2) since you don't think
>>> Bo ought to be banned. I thought Horse had done 1) in which case forum
>>> rules are now:
>>>
>>> #1 You must have read Pirsig's 2 books
>>> #2 You may not say that SOL was Pirsig's idea
>>>
>>> (Are there other rules to add to this list?) But perhaps Horse only
>>> intended 2). I normally delete any posts addressed to or from Bo, so
>>> I'm not at all clear about what has transpired. Is there a new forum
>>> rule or not?
>>
>> If my position isn't clear now then it is unlikely to ever be so.
>> Bo hasn't posted for a while so maybe he's taking time out to 
>> consider what I and others have said. I hope so.
>> Bo and others are quite welcome to continue to promote the SOL but 
>> with regard for what I have asked.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Horse
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring 
>> production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
>> — Frank Zappa
>>
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-- 

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
— Frank Zappa