[MD] Decision

[Ian Glendinning]

I can't help thinking this is descending into a linguistic game that
has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread (about Horse's
decision).

When Mary responded to Craig, suggesting it was subjects and objects
that distinguished the intellectual .... my initial response (dredged
up from my drafts folder) was

Necessary yes, clearly, no doubt, a given, .... but not sufficient or
limiting. (And as Matt went on to point out that's also a property of
sentences too.)

(But again - What has this to do at all with this "Decision" thread ?
The thread is not about arguments for or against SOL/SIM.)

In Craig's "sentence" "Fore!" the subjects and objects are implied
.... but if you don't like that answer, we could have a thread
debating the meaning of the word sentence.

And for John, who also seems to like the linguistic games or exegesis
or hermeneutics of the ancient texts .... Pirsig's first recorded
reference to the MoQ was in fact as "a Quality metaphysics" .... don't
read too much into that.

As you were, don't mind me.
Ian

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 6:38 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Andy, you're flirting with my idea of the levels now, which I distinguish
> from the MoQ by calling it a Quality metaphysics as opposed to a Metaphysics
> of Quality and  use the designation Q'm"
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Andy Skelton <skeltoac at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Craig, you neglected to justify your premise that
>> > 1) The intellectual level is the manipulation of symbolic representations
>>
>> Consider that social interaction is communication from a self to an
>> other, i.e. manipulation of symbols between subjects and objects.
>> Otherness is created at level 3, not level 4.
>>
>>
>
> That there is a key point.  However, I see the creation of symbolic
> representation of otherness as a 3rd level phenomena and the manipulation of
> those symbols the defining characteristic of the 4th.  I view SOM as the
> basic starting point of the 4th level, but not the whole thing.  In fact, I
> view the 4th level as unbounded at the upper ends, since you can objectify
> patterns infinitely.  Any metaphysics that can be stated, can be transcended
> and built upon in an infinite progression of knowing.  There is no limit to
> intellect.
>
>
> To summarize:
>
> 1st level:  patterns
>
> 2nd level:  intelligent patterns (possessed of choice)
>
> 3rd level:  Socially intelligent patterns
>
> 4th level:  Intellectual/Artistic  patterns progressing infinitely toward DQ
>
>
>
>
>> 1) The social level is the manipulation of symbolic representations
>> 2) Symbolic representation requires both something-represented &
>> something-represented-to
>> 3) Something-represented is an object
>> 4) Something-represented-to is a subject
>> 5) The social level requires subjects & objects
>> 6) :. The intellectual level requires subjects and objects
>>
>> I suppose this is a more Pirsigian proof. But as I've said, I am not
>> nearly qualified to speak about this.
>>
>>
> A good thinker is always Qualified.
>
>
> John,  staying at home today and glad for something to think
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