[MD] Decision

[John Carl]

 Oh Ian, I can't help it neither.


I can't help thinking this is descending into a linguistic game that
> has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread (about Horse's
> decision).
>
>

Linguistic game?  Coming from you, I appreciate that immensely.  For you
know it's all linguistic games.  The Quality  question being, which games to
take more seriously than others.



>
> And for John, who also seems to like the linguistic games or exegesis
> or hermeneutics of the ancient texts .... Pirsig's first recorded
> reference to the MoQ was in fact as "a Quality metaphysics" .... don't
> read too much into that.
>
>
Got me again!  Almost.

Anyway, you started it Ian.  The linguistic gamesmanship I mean with the ol'
plant and all.

I'm just a simple guy who'd have to look up "hermeneutics" in a dictionary
before I'd be comfortable using it in a sentence, or figuring out how to
construe it proper.  Same with exegesis.




> As you were, don't mind me.
>


 I always do.  I should probably stop soon.


ol' John








> Ian
>
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 6:38 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Andy, you're flirting with my idea of the levels now, which I distinguish
> > from the MoQ by calling it a Quality metaphysics as opposed to a
> Metaphysics
> > of Quality and  use the designation Q'm"
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Andy Skelton <skeltoac at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Craig, you neglected to justify your premise that
> >> > 1) The intellectual level is the manipulation of symbolic
> representations
> >>
> >> Consider that social interaction is communication from a self to an
> >> other, i.e. manipulation of symbols between subjects and objects.
> >> Otherness is created at level 3, not level 4.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > That there is a key point.  However, I see the creation of symbolic
> > representation of otherness as a 3rd level phenomena and the manipulation
> of
> > those symbols the defining characteristic of the 4th.  I view SOM as the
> > basic starting point of the 4th level, but not the whole thing.  In fact,
> I
> > view the 4th level as unbounded at the upper ends, since you can
> objectify
> > patterns infinitely.  Any metaphysics that can be stated, can be
> transcended
> > and built upon in an infinite progression of knowing.  There is no limit
> to
> > intellect.
> >
> >
> > To summarize:
> >
> > 1st level:  patterns
> >
> > 2nd level:  intelligent patterns (possessed of choice)
> >
> > 3rd level:  Socially intelligent patterns
> >
> > 4th level:  Intellectual/Artistic  patterns progressing infinitely toward
> DQ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> 1) The social level is the manipulation of symbolic representations
> >> 2) Symbolic representation requires both something-represented &
> >> something-represented-to
> >> 3) Something-represented is an object
> >> 4) Something-represented-to is a subject
> >> 5) The social level requires subjects & objects
> >> 6) :. The intellectual level requires subjects and objects
> >>
> >> I suppose this is a more Pirsigian proof. But as I've said, I am not
> >> nearly qualified to speak about this.
> >>
> >>
> > A good thinker is always Qualified.
> >
> >
> > John,  staying at home today and glad for something to think
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