[MD] Valuing Bodvar's SIM (BSIM)

[Krimel]

> [Krimel]
> The 4th level is ideas, concepts and they can exist separated from
> "minds". 

[Bo]
No, if so the "idea" to make flint tools was an intellectual pattern and 
the Neanderthals were intellectuals. 

[Krimel]
Yes, flint tools and cave painting are intellectual patterns or patterns
that reflect the use of intellect and they are part of the intellectual
level.

[Bo]
Snap out of the notion that anything we think is intellect, it's not right
even in SOM, my dictionary correctly defines intellect as the ability to
distinguish what's subjective 
from what's objective, i.e. the S/O distinction. Spot on! The snag is that
even my dictionary says "...the power of mind to distinguish" and hence the
conclusion that because this goes on in our minds "intellect = MIND".  You
somists have the SOM culture behind  you while we poor moqists have to
resolve metaphysical disputes in every sentence. 

[Krimel]
I said the intellectual level is made up of encoded ideas. It doesn't matter
whether anyone is thinking them at the moment or not. You have mentioned
your dictionary many times. Get a new one or use the internet. Your
dictionary and the internet are part of the intellectual level to BTW.
 
> [Krimel]
> Books and motorcycles have ideas encoded in them. They are
> part of the 4th level. 

[Bo]
Yes from inside SOM - inside the intellectual level - printed text, books, 
hieroglyphs and cuneiform clay tablets express IDEAS, but from the 
MOQ seen cuneiform tablets, hieroglyphs, Bible, Koran, Talmud ...etc 
express SOCIAL,value while Aristotle, Newton and Krimel's texts 
express INTELLECTUAL value. And - mark you - intellet's S/O is the 
highest and best static value, but is subordinated the DQ/SQ system.

[Krimel]
No, all you are saying is that ideas you like are part of the intellectual
level and ideas you don't like are part of the social. That's just
dishonest.

> [Krimel]
> Ideas are intellectual patterns and while they originate in minds and
> are shared by minds they are not confined to minds.

[Bo]
"Ideas as intellectual patterns" is an unsavory mixture of MOQ and SOM. 

[Krimel]
But it is ok that the inorganic level is made up of inorganic patterns and
the biological level is made up of biological patterns and the social level
is made up of social patterns?
WTF?

[Bo]
In MOQ there are "intellectual patterns" and they are invariably 
S/O-ish in some or other form. Inside intellect however  - in S/O-land - 
there are ideas that may manifest as material artefacts - as a 
motorcycle f.ex. -  but  they originate in minds and as ideas are 
confined to minds.

[Krimel]
No! An intellectual pattern is a pattern that can be passed around and
shared with others. It is an idea expressed in a way that others can decode
its meaning and share it. But it is not confined to a mind. It can be carved
in stone, printed on a page or flung into outer space piggybacked onto
electromagnetic radiation.