[MD] Levels in electronic computers

[Krimel]

[Krimel said:]
... It is a gross distortion to say that all life is at odds with the force
of gravity for example. Life as we know it depends on the force of gravity.
The fact that we stand upright and move around does not put us at odds with
gravity. The fact that birds can fly puts them in harmony with the air not
at adds with gravity. 


dmb says:
Well, yea, it would be a gross distortion to construe all life as opposed to
gravity. But that's not what Pirsig is saying. What he's saying is obvious
and you're trying to make the obvious sound weird. Consider this little bit
of common sense, which is part of my computer's definition of "animal".

"Animals are generally distinguished from plants by being unable to
synthesize organic molecules from inorganic ones, so that they have to feed
on plants or on other animals. They are typically able to move about,
although this ability is sometimes restricted to a particular stage in the
life cycle."

[Krimel]
Ok, plants have this extraordinary ability to synthesize inorganic matter
into self sustaining, self replicating proteins. Plants convert sunlight
into chemical energy. Plants existed for a billion years or so before
animals appeared. Plants oxygenated Earth's atmosphere. 

Animals take the oxygen and complex molecules created by plants and use this
stored chemical energy to move about. So far so good, static relationships
given enough time can create the possibility for the formation of new kinds
of relationships.

[dmb]
Similarly, "animate" means "to put in motion" and it means "bring to life".
This is what separates rocks from living things. Rocks can only move when
acted upon by gravity, wind, rain or some other physical force. Life forms,
by contrast, always involve some kind of motion or movement, even if that
just means an internal process like photosynthesis. Sometimes life forms are
more conspicuously animated, like when they run, slither, jump, swim, fly,
crawl, hop or skitter but the sunflower moves it's "face" to follow the sun
and even single-celled organisms will retreat from a hostile environment.
Rocks just don't do that kind of thing. 

[Krimel]
Rocks do that kind of thing if sufficient energies are applied. Volcanoes,
earthquakes and asteroids can really make them hop, skitter and fly. With a
application of properly timed energies rocks can be turned into pyramids or
refined into glass. None of this violates or runs at odd with gravity or any
other force in nature. Without gravity; "running", "slithering", "jumping",
"swimming", "flying", "crawling", "hopping" and "skittering"; would have no
meaning. If gravity were a wee bit more or a wee bit less; they would
meaning something entirely other than what they mean now.

On balance the environment on this planet is not hostile to life. It
nurtures life. Biology is not at odds with the inorganic level. It literally
grows out of it. You can say it is at odds or is hostile, I suppose. But I
don't see the negativity.

[dmb]
That's the sense in which the organic level overcomes gravity. 

[Krimel]
In the sense that it is a result of and in harmony with gravity? If you mean
"overcome" in some obscure Aikido sense; sure; as in we "conquer" or enemies
when we make them our friends. But if that's the sense you mean, it's an
obtuse way to frame it. Rather like Marsha and Ham's "cat is what not-cat's
not". Or perhaps Douglas Adams' claim that the trick to flying is to throw
yourself at the ground and miss. Apparently is quite easy once you get the
knack.

[dmb]
Growth is obviously different from entropy and flight is conspicuously
distinguishable from falling. 

[Krimel]
The problem is that entropy isn't like that. It is in all of these; growth,
flight and falling. Entropy is everywhere. It is fundamental as in the laws
of thermodynamics which are:

First Law:  You can't get anything without working for it.
Second Law: The most you can accomplish by work is to break even.
Third Law:  You can't break even.

Life is what happens before entropy is finished.
We are sunlight dissipating. 

[dmb]
Life overcomes the limits of inorganic forces in this way. 

[Krimel]
Life cannot overcome the limits of inorganic forces. It depends upon being
in harmony them completely.

[dmb]
Life adds a new, less law-like set of processes to the world. It's really
that simple. 

[Krimel]
It's really not simple at all. In fact it's quite complex and that's what's
"new" about life; its complexity. That is what "less law-like" is; more
complex; more probabilistic. So dependant of the balance of such a host of
forces that there's no telling what it might do next. 
That's life. It arises mysteriously when you mix earth, air and water in
sunlight.

[dmb]
There is nothing weird about such obvious claims.

[Krimel]
Oh yeah, life is weird too; solar energy shaking molecules into chains of
hydrocarbons and proteined double helix, replication and iteration.

It seems weird to me to think that such delicate and fragile webs could
survive if they were truly at odds with the forces that give rise to them.
But obviously your glass is half empty.