[MD] Levels in electronic computers

[Krimel]

Krimel said:
 ... If you mean "overcome" in some obscure Aikido sense; sure; as in we
"conquer" or enemies when we make them our friends. But if that's the sense
you mean, it's an obtuse way to frame it. ...Life cannot overcome the limits
of inorganic forces. It depends upon being in harmony them completely.

dmb says:
I think my explanation was quite clear and you're just being intentionally
obtuse for the fun of it. It shows a lack of sincerity, I think. 

[Krimel]
I think this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about much
less what I am talking about. Furthermore it is pretty clear Pirsig doesn't
know what he is talking about with regard to evolution either. I realize
that as his chief apologist this puts you in a difficult position and
running is a good strategy for you.

[dmb]
"Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic nature. They originate
out of society, which originates out of biology which originates out of
inorganic nature... There is no direct scientific connection between mind
and matter. ...Our intellectual description of nature is always culturally
derived." (LILA)

By contrast, Krimel said:
That's life. It arises mysteriously when you mix earth, air and water in
sunlight.

[Krimel]
Here you conflate life and mental patterns. Inorganic patterns, like
biological and social patterns are necessary but not sufficient conditions
for the production of mental patterns. Saying that we have not found all of
the connections between mind and matter is not the same as saying there are
none. There is quite a bit of evidence linking specific brain states to
specific mental states and I know of nothing whatever that would suggest
that they are not directly connected. I have been waiting for about four
years now for you to present evidence of a lack of connection. Feel free to
do so now.

dmb says:
Really? You're stick to your reductionist guns, eh? You do realize that this
kind of reductionist scientific materialism is central to the problem that
the levels are mental to solve. Once again, you're simply offer the problem
as an alternative to the solution. This shows a lack of comprehension as to
what the problem is.  		 	   		  

[Krimel]
Reductionsim? Again? Why do you go out of your way to embarrass yourself
this way, Dave.