[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

[David Thomas]

> DT quoted Goldberg:
>  "Governmental "experimentation," the watchword of pragmatic liberals such as
> Dewey and Wilson, to FDR was the social analogue to evolutionary adaption.
> Constitutional democracy, as the founder understood it, was a momentary phase
> in this progression."
> DT said:
>  Marx's theory placed capitalism as the evolutionary step before socialism.
> His theory also claimed that cultures that weren't at the capitalist step were
> too far behind, would never catch up, and should be eliminated. ...The problem
> is that applying a new theory (a very limited and partially understood one
> even now) of the biological level to the social level has and continues to be
> fraught with unintended and often tragic consequences. Something developers of
> pragmatism should have been aware of.  For instance, social engineering though
> planning, zoning, and building codes whatever goods they achieved have been
> directly linked to the unintended consequences of urban sprawl, homelessness,
> the lack of affordable housing and many other similar current problems
> worldwide.
> 
> 
> dmb says:
> 
> Well, that's the kind of "reasoning" that makes Goldberg a laughing stock.
> Phrases like "governmental experimentation" and "social engineering" are
> well-worn ways to demonize progressive policies, to demonize any effort to
> have an intellectually guided society. You might recall the way Pirsig
> approvingly quotes Harry Truman as a pragmatic liberal, saying we'll try to
> fix the problem this way and if that doesn't work we'll try something else.
> Pragmatists are meliorists. They subscribe to the notion that the world can
> and has and should be made better by human effort.
[Dave]
I agree with these pragmatic notions. I would even go farther and say that
something like the pragmatic question, "What possible difference would it
make if this idea were to become true?" maybe at the core of all human
advancement. But as with all thought experiments involving human life it is
very very difficult (virtually impossible) to predict ALL of the
consequences. So for governments to apply an untested theory or
misunderstood science on a wide scale by force of law, usually with little
public understanding or input, is fraught with the danger and the unintended
consequences usually bad.
> 
> In Dewey's case I happen to know that he used the theory of evolution to
> develop a theory of inquiry and a theory of education that emphasized hands-on
> practical knowledge. He saw a remarkable continuity between the scientific
> method and the methods by which an organism makes adjustments within the
> ongoing process of living. He also happens to have been the patron saint of
> liberalism and the right liked him about as much as they liked FDR.
> 
> As Wiki says, "The overriding theme of Dewey's works was his profound belief
> in democracy, be it in politics, education or communication and journalism. As
> Dewey himself stated in 1888, while still at the University of Michigan,
> 'Democracy and the one, ultimate, ethical ideal of humanity are to my mind
> synonymous'."
> 
> Also, planning and zoning lead to sprawl? Planning and zoning are supposed to
> prevent sprawl. Around here, it's pretty obvious that some municipalities plan
> well and some don't.
[Dave]
Evidence of urban planning shows up as early as 3000BC but zoning as a
planning tool is relatively recent phenomena. The type of zoning most
prevalent in the U.S. Is called "Euclidean zoning" and it is usually traced
back to the early 1900's and work of French architect Le Corbusier.

>[Wikipedia]
>  Euclidean zoning is characterized by the segregation of land uses into
> specified geographic districts and dimensional standards stipulating
> limitations on development activity within each type of district.
[Dave]
One of most radical of Le Corbusier ideas is the complete separation of
areas to be lived in from any services required for living and absolutely no
work of any type to be done where you live. No grocery stores, restaurants,
drugstores (heaven forbid a neighborhood bar) in living areas. And
absolutely no mixing work and living. Living above your small shop that had
been the norm for thousands of years prior to this is forbidden except as
grandfathered in when the codes were enacted.

> In 1916, New York City adopted the first zoning regulations to apply city-wide
> .... These laws set the pattern for zoning in the rest of the country.
[Dave]
Within less than 50 years every town and village that got to about to a
certain size (usually about 3000 people) adopted a version of this idea.
This process is often fraught with corruption. Usually the people who are
most active in pushing for adoption and served on boards that developed
these plans are large land owners and businesses looking to protect their
interests, increase the value of their property, and exclude all
"undesirable" people and activities from their limits.

Modern planning and zoning are a perfect example of governments applying
untested theories, not even a theories really just ideas, with absolutely no
scientific underpinning, no experiments, or tests just do it and see what
happens.  Then even when it becomes very evident "ITS NOT WORKING" the
momentum and vested interests of all parties make it keep on going it until
its just awful. But by that time so much is invested in long term
infrastructure that the cost of change in real and political capital makes
it nearly impossible.

All this based on an idea which over the last 100 years has been PROVEN over
and over to be just plain WRONG. Just like socialism.
> 
> Wiki also says:
> As a major advocate for academic freedom, in 1935 Dewey, together with Albert
> Einstein and Alvin Johnson, became a member of the United States section of
> the International League for Academic Freedom, and in 1940, together with
> Horace M Kallen, edited a series of articles related to the infamous Bertrand
> Russell Case.As well as being active in defending the independence of
> teachers, and opposing a communist takeover of the New York Teacher's Union,
> Dewey was involved in the organization that eventually became the National
> Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).He directed the
> famous Dewey Commission held in Mexico in 1937, which cleared Trotsky of the
> charges made against him by Stalin, and marched for women's rights, among many
> other causes.In 1950, Dewey, together with Bertrand Russell, Benedetto Croce,
> Karl Jaspers, and Jacques Maritain agreed to act as honorary chairman of the
> Congress for Cultural Freedom."
> 
> dmb says:
> Don't you think these descriptions paint him as a dude who pushing for
> intellectual values, for freedom of speech, for anti-racism, for women's
> rights, for academic and cultural freedom and, in short, freedom of thought.
> Interestingly, Dewey operated out of the University of Chicago so that it was
> a center of liberalism but in the years shortly before Pirsig started in the
> Ph.D. program there, it became a bastion of conservatism and more or less
> remains so to this day. I wonder how things might have turned out for Pirsig
> if had had attended the same school during it's period of pragmatic
> liberalism. He didn't know it at the time but Dewey, following James, had
> already rejected SOM. Discovering such a philosophical ally at that point in
> his quest could have saved him a whole lot of grief, I suppose.

[Dave] 
Given all this how can you support Pirsig's claim the socialism is a more
moral system? Socialism is all about the restrictions of freedom. I know, I
know, the ideas are great just the wrong people time after time got a hold
of them. Harry said "try and fix the problem this way and if that doesn't
work we'll try something else"  How many years, deaths, and mountains of
human misery are necessary before deciding that IT DOESN'T WORK?

Dave