[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

[Khoo Hock Aun]

Mary:
Sorry, I was not trying to call you out or bait you as is the basic pattern
of this list of late,

Khoo:
There is no need to take on the negative patterns of the group.

Mary:
but I would like to start a clear conversation sometime.

Khoo:
A clear conversation requires an clear understanding of each other's
premises. I dont want to waste time at cross purposes and trying to bridge
uncrossable chasms.

Mary:
It seems like the major reason you have problems with seeing the
Intellectual _Static_ Level as SOM has to do with an exclusion of Eastern
values.

Khoo:
You are trying to secondguess me here; as to how and why I see the
Intellectual level. I would appreciate if you steer away from comments about
my motivations, and focus on the argument - I simply dont see the
intellectual level as solely SOM, because it aint so.

My starting point is that the intellectual level is where the cosmologies,
worldviews and yes, metaphysics of various civilisations reside. Different
metaphysics predominate in certain civilisations. SOM happens to dominate
the Western; non-SOM ones are recessive and if you dont see this, then its
your blind spot.

Mary:
This is so,

Khoo:
You seem very certain of this to repeat this, but you really dont know the
basis for my thinking. How can you when you really dont know where I am
coming from.

Mary:
but if you've followed the protracted conversations on
this topic you might be aware that those of us who view SOM as the
Intellectual _Static_ Level also view the MoQ as something higher than that.

Khoo:
I have followed discussions in great detail, but have no wish to be part of
negative argumentation that comes from flawed premises.

In the particular case above, the MOQ as an intellectual pattern belongs to
the intellectual level. You can call it the Theory of Quality if you want,
as distinct from the Practice of Quality, which is the Art, and the direct
experience of Dynamic Quality all at once.

Mary:
What I think Pirsig is trying to point to is that the MoQ is equivalent to
the Dharma, and that both these operate at a higher plane than the mere
Intellectual Level - which is, need I repeat Static. :)

Khoo:
Dhamma (Pāli: धम्म) or Dharma (Sanskrit: धर्म) in Buddhism has two primary
meanings: the teachings of the Buddha which lead to
enlightenment (The Universal law of nature) and the constituent factors of
the experienced world (The characteristic of elements).

I will quote S. N. Goenka in reply to you on this from his
article found in the  June 6 1999 edition of the Vipassana newletter :
http://www.vridhamma.org/en1999-06.aspx
**
"Come, let us understand what is Dhamma? What is the pure nature of Dhamma?
What is the universal nature of Dhamma? What is the quintessence of Dhamma?
If one does not understand the essence of Dhamma, how can one practise it
properly? If one does not practise it, how can one derive benefit from
Dhamma? Without practice, Dhamma will only remain a subject of intellectual
discussion, debates and arguments. At the most it will become a subject of
intellectual entertainment. We shall remain deprived of the benefits of
Dhamma."

Mary:
I don't imagine you view Dharma as _static_, but I could be wrong?

Khoo:
Its obvious and its clear.

If you dont practice it, Dhamma is nothing more than words on pages in a
book, static as anything can be. An intellectual pattern that is part of the
intellectual level of a civilisation. Practise it and one steps into the
dynamism of Reality. The Practice of Dhamma, the direct experiencing of
Dynamic Quality is above the intellectual level.

And I want to make myself absolutely clear on this:

the Metaphysics of Quality is NOT Dynamic Quality.

One is the finger and the other the moon.
One is the map and the other the terrain.
One is the theory and the other the practice.
One is the science and the other the art.
One is bounded rationality and the other is unbounded creativity.
One is vicarious experience and the other direct experience.

 One resides in the intellectual level and the other transcends it.
One is an explanation for Reality and the other is Reality.

I am afraid that is all I have time for, for now.

Rgds
Khoo Hock Aun