[MD] Babylonian intellectuals

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Sun Jul 25 19:53:22 PDT 2010 

Hi Mary,

I agree with what you are saying here.  I, too, see the MoQ as 
something higher than the Intellectual Level.


Marsha 



On Jul 25, 2010, at 10:12 PM, Mary wrote:

> Hello Khoo,
> 
> Sorry, I was not trying to call you out or bait you as is the basic pattern
> of this list of late, but I would like to start a clear conversation
> sometime.  It seems like the major reason you have problems with seeing the
> Intellectual _Static_ Level as SOM has to do with an exclusion of Eastern
> values.  This is so, but if you've followed the protracted conversations on
> this topic you might be aware that those of us who view SOM as the
> Intellectual _Static_ Level also view the MoQ as something higher than that.
> What I think Pirsig is trying to point to is that the MoQ is equivalent to
> the Dharma, and that both these operate at a higher plane than the mere
> Intellectual Level - which is, need I repeat Static. :)  I don't imagine you
> view Dharma as _static_, but I could be wrong?
> 
> Best,
> Mary
> 
>> Mary,
>> 
>> Since you called me out, is it your intention to bait me with the
>> comments
>> below? if you are, I am going to ignore this post of yours
>> If you are not, then try to address my point that Eastern civilisations
>> such
>> as the Chinese, have evolved their respective intellectual levels such
>> that they are not dominated by SOM, but where other intellectual
>> patterns have taken hold.
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> Khoo Hock Aun
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 2:39 AM, Mary <marysonthego at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Nah.  Read that post again.  Khoo can't stand the thought that the
>>> Intellectual Level is SOM because he wants to think that all
>> Easterner's
>>> are
>>> above that.  He seems to think that an Easterner can have no home in
>> the
>>> Intellectual Level as SOM and that that is somehow degrading?
>> Interesting.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>>> Nice Khoo,
>>>> 
>>>> You really make the point well that we are engaged in an infinite
>>>> process,
>>>> and if we expect any sort of  finality we're going to be
>> disappointed.
>>>> 
>>>> But even while our formulations and dialectical wrangling seem
>> endless,
>>>> we
>>>> ought to also be progressing - getting us somewhere.
>>>> 
>>>> I myself feel happy and content with my own evolving ideas,
>> generated
>>>> by the
>>>> many good ideas and thinkers on this list for their time, effort
>> and
>>>> care.
>>>> I want to thank each and every contributor, the more infuriating,
>> the
>>>> better.
>>>> 
>>>> As always, Khoo,  you bring a fresh wind and a fresh perspective.
>>>> 
>>>> Good words, and I appreciate them.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> John.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> n Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Khoo Hock Aun
>> <khoohockaun at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> That many can read an author like Pirsig and come away with
>> widely
>>>>> differing
>>>>> understandings is to be expected.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would have thought a more open dynamic mind would be completely
>>>> receptive
>>>>> to what Pirsig was trying to convey. A closed static mind, sees
>> the
>>>> MOQ
>>>>> only
>>>>> in its own mould.  In Bo's case, I would venture fourth stage
>> meta-
>>>> stasis
>>>>> had already set in years ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pirsig should have added a caveat, that the MOQ is not for
>> everyone
>>>> to
>>>>> grasp
>>>>> at first instance. For some it could takes, years, decades or
>> even a
>>>>> lifetime.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave added:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I really, really hate what you're doing to this place, clogging
>> it
>>>> up
>>>>> with
>>>>>> this hair-brained nonsense all the time. I listened to it for
>> over
>>>> a
>>>>> decade
>>>>>> now and I'm just sick to death of it. Please, get a hobby. Go
>> away.
>>>> Let
>>>>> us
>>>>>> do philosophy, will you? That would be "a promising
>> development".
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Khoo would like to say:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I, for one, really appreciate all your exertions, as do all else
>> who
>>>> labour
>>>>> like you do to clarify our understanding of the MOQ and Quality
>> as
>>>>> presented
>>>>> by Pirsig.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is not wasted, even if it might be on Bo.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It has helped instead to refresh our perspectives, place into
>>>> context,
>>>>> again
>>>>> and again by repeated defence against the assault on Pirsig's
>> MOQ.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lurkers and newbies alike, if I may say so, who disdain but
>> endure
>>>> the
>>>>> endless, sometimes pointless argumentation over basic
>> definitions,
>>>> see much
>>>>> value in defending Pirsig's formulation of the MOQ, given that it
>> is
>>>> THAT
>>>>> which drew them here in the first place, not a pretender's
>> version.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If and when, we, as a discussion group,  leave all this
>> "adolesecent"
>>>>> sparring behind, I hope we can explore the new vistas an expanded
>>>>> rationality can explore.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We still have not bridged Western and Eastern philosophies yet,
>> which
>>>> is
>>>>> one
>>>>> such great promise of the MOQ finding common ground I look
>> forward
>>>> to;
>>>>> by understanding how Eastern civilisations have achieved their
>>>> respective
>>>>> intellectual levels as compared to the SOM-dominated Western
>>>> worldview.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We will cross the bridge when we come to it. But we are not there
>>>> yet.
>>>>> Not when we still have to come to terms with tendencies no matter
>> how
>>>> overt
>>>>> or latent, for Western hegemony over the rest of the world.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It does looks like a slog, but then again, who can ask for a
>> better
>>>> cast of
>>>>> characters than on the this list to make philosophy an ongoing
>>>> dynamic
>>>>> battle, an everyday real-life clash of ideas sometimes couched in
>>>> terms of
>>>>> "biblical proportions" and implications. It gets the adrenaline
>>>> pumping;
>>>>> emotional drivers that help meld the static and the dynamic to
>> yield
>>>>> creative insight by the clash of the rhetorical swords.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You stay keen and sharp by your own vigilance for the real and
>> good.
>>>> This
>>>>> state of mind does not come in the absence of opponents and
>>>> detractors who
>>>>> distract by imposing themselves on you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thats all they do and want to do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>> Khoo Hock Aun
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> khoohockaun at gmail.com
>> 6016-301 4079
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