[MD] Bo's weak versus strong interpretation of quantum physiks

[plattholden at gmail.com]

On 26 Jul 2010 at 13:28, Krimel wrote:

[Platt]
The source of SOM is not the issue. I guess you would claim the source is
the brain.
Whatever the source, the process is the same -- subjects observing objects,
a.k.a., I think, therefore I am.

[Krimel]
That doesn't even make sense in Cartesian terms. The cogito does not produce
the mind body problem that is derived from Descartes elaborations on the one
toehold of certainty he could find. How you can equate a supernatural
theistic world view with SOM is entirely a mystery.

[Platt]
I think (subject), therefore I am (objective state of being). Get it? The
real 
mystery is how you think I equated a supernatural theistic world view with
SOM. 

[Krimel]
I think (subject), therefore I am (subjective state of being). Get it there
is not objective there are at all. Descartes moves on from here to derive
objectives but at this point it is just solipsism. 

[Platt]
So existence is subjective? I didn't know you were an idealist. 

[Krimel]
The Academy includes theology departments where many hold to a supernatural
theistic world view. If you do not think this is SOM then the Academy cannot
be entirely dominated by SOM. Bob Jones University and a host slightly less
dogmatic institutions were chiefly founded, motivated, driven and
administered by religious organizations which are not SOM. Institutions in
exist as part of the academy in India, China and throughout the Orient which
have other than SOM world views.

[Platt]
A supernatural theistic world view is just as SOM as all world views except 
those of mystics who reject all bisected world views and artists who never know 
beforehand exactly what their world view will become. Other than those two 
groups, I have yet to see anybody designate a culture not dominated by SOM, and 
back it up with credible source. . 

[Platt]
Well, why don't you clue us in to whatever they did "beyond SOM? I'm not 
familiar with Shannon but I know Mandelbrot funished us all with some pretty

patterns. Is there a clue about a "world beyond SOM" there somewhere?

[Krimel]
In information theory the world is composed of information not subjects or
objects. In fractal geometry the world is not composed of discrete static
units of space and/or time but is continuous and dynamic. It is
deterministic but not predicatable.

[Platt]
I guess you're saying mathematics is a "world beyond SOM." If so, you're not 
alone. Some scientists like Roger Penrose also a takes a Platonic viewpoint. l 
preferin-the-sky the here-and -now variety of reality rather than the pie-in-
the-sky variety. I respect Plato's assumption of a world of perfect forms of 
which we are merely a poor SOM reflection. But when I think of mathematics and 
mathematical theories, I think of subjects manipulating objective symbols in a 
structured manner. 

[Platt]
Without taxing the production of the private sector the government couldn't 
finance a lollipop much less waste billions of dollars on a super collider,
for 
just one example. To offer balance I remind you that government is legalized

force.

[Krimel]
Without a government the private sector wouldn't have any money or
infrastructure to conduct its business. By isolating the legal use of force
to government we avoid having it used willy nilly in acts of barbarism.

[Platt]
I certainly agree government has legitimate functions. You mentioned several 
important ones. Our differences are about size, scope and overall purpose. . 

[Krimel]
You are the one who consistently measure political virtue in terms of body
counts. Your second sentence is simply inintelligible.

[Platt]
I constantly do what? Please cite example of my use of "body counts." The 
second sentence is all about the government treating individuals as
faceless, 
nameless bodies, leaving the individual little choice.  

[Krimel]
You constantly remind us of the body counts racked up by Pol Pot, Stalin,
Hitler and whoever else comes to mind and you have defended our genocide of
native tribes and the murder and abuse of slaves on the basis of us having
killed fewer of them.

[Platt]
I don't think my "reminders" have been constant of the millions murdered by 
socialist governments, although it's good to be reminded from time to time how 
the best of intentions can go horribly wrong. If I left you with the impression 
that I think Indian genocide or murder and abuse of slaves was excusable, I 
categorically deny that I think that. What I do point out is that we ended 
slavery and Indian genocide Indians in the 19th century while countries in 
Europe and Asia, supposedly more "civilized" than "unsophisticated" America, 
proceeded on a course of horror, death and destruction beyond anything 
previously endured by any peoples in history. Then you have to ask why.

[Krimel]
Universal health care in fact expands our range of choices. When you are
sick those choices get severely restricted until you are well and if you
don't have the funds to pay for treatment you can lose your home and your
life savings. In nearly everything it does liberal democracy expands the
potential and opportunities for its citizens.
  
[Platt]
The U.S.offers universal health care through private practices, free clinics 
and emergency rooms. In addition, there's a wide range of charities to provide 
assistance to those who, for one reason another, don't have insurance and find 
themselves in a pinch due to illness. As for the value of government-imposed 
universal health care, I recommend today's article in the NY Times regarding 
the England's National Health Service at:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/world/europe/25britain.html?_r=2&hp

It reports on the many changes to the system being proposed due to its 
deficiencies. About the matter of "range of choices" for the individual, I 
hope you not gloss over the following excerpt:

"Currently, how and where patients are treated, and by whom, is largely 
determined by decisions made by 150 entities known as primary care trusts . . " 
   
Personal  choice? I don't so.