[MD] Social Intellectual

[Ian Glendinning]

I agree with that Dave, but I don't think Craig was wrong,

The patterning into the objects and concepts (of materialised reality)
clearly came with human SOMism. The something that existed before then
is always seen through that lens, always partially metaphorical using
those concepts. MoQ says they were always interacting patterns of
quality. However good those objective, material metaphors prove to be,
it pays to remember that's what they are.

The view that levels emerge from lower levels is still a view, however good.
Never to be taken "too literally" as you put it.
Ian
PS - Probably need to translate the fig joke for the Brits ? ;-)

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:35 AM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Craig said:
> IMHO Pirsig is speaking metaphorically here & still holds the MoQ view that higher levels emerge from lower.  A description & structuring of reality is something that humans do. But experience thru interaction is something patterns at all levels do, even before there were humans.
>
> dmb says:
>
> Yes, again, that's what common sense tells you but the MOQ challenges that common view. The idea that matter came before ideas is a really good idea but it's still just an idea. In fact, "matter" is a concept. This idea is so good that it fits right into the static levels, which describe reality as a evolutionary process. But this is not to be taken as a re-assertion of objectivity or the metaphysics of substance, not to be taken too literally.
>
> Don't forget how the whole thing starts; with ghost stories, ghosts like gravity. I think it's still the first day of the journey in the first book when he explains how ridiculous it is to think that gravity existed before human beings, especially before a particular human named Newton.
>
> (His pals called him "Fig"and laughed about it but he never once thought it was funny.)
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>