[MD] Re Arlo

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Bo]
The MOQ being an intellectual pattern is forbidden by logic. The 4th. level is
a MOQ creation, subset, property ... 

[Arlo]
Again with this fallacy. The 4th level is better seen as a "MOQ description",
as the MOQ did not "create" the intellectual level any more than Peirce
"created" signs. 

They are DESCRIPTIONS of experience, and as such ALL metaphysical systems, ALL
OF THEM, are part of the experience they describe. 

Your solution, to propose a "metaphysics level" above "intellect" is untenable,
as descriptions of the "metaphysical level" would further necessitate a
"meta-metaphysics level" above that, then a "meta-meta-metaphysics level" ad
infinitum.

I know the candy tastes good, that recursion and self-referential loops can
seem scary and all, like looking at the Escher print "Relativity" for the first
time, it can cause your paradigm to shift without a clutch (nod to Scott
Adams). But, really, this is the beautiful path that avoids the untenable and
cluttered denial you seek to run from "container" issues.

[Bo]
... but Andy and Arlo are keen to pollute the MOQ with SOM and its paradoxes ...

[Arlo]
"Paradoxes" have nothing to do with "SOM". I swear, you guys who chirp "SOM!
SOM! SOM!" are completely clueless as to the term, both grammatically and
contextually.

In any event, ANY system complex enough to offer meaningful descriptions of
reality will UNAVOIDABLY be self-referential, and prone to the "paradoxes" that
apparently make your head hurt.

[Bo]
...and uses the Reality/Map allegory for all it is worth to promote their
somish point that the MOQ only exists in our minds. 

[Arlo]
Again with the "SOM" misuse. Here's a clue, each time you want to type "SOM"
type "subject-object metaphysics" instead. Maybe that will help you avoid such
mistakes.

In any event, I never said "the MOQ exists only in our minds". Nor did I ever
say that "intellectual patterns exist only in our mind". Intellectual patterns
exist independently of whatever it is you call "mind". Indeed, your harping
about "mind" (a term I never use) only makes it clear that it is YOU who can't
escape the idea that intellect can be more than "subjectivism".

[Bo]
They will not give up the SOM at any price.

[Arlo]
Comments like this just make you look like an idiot.