[MD] The social and intellectual strongholds.

[X Acto]

Bodvar
4 Mar:

Bodvar before
> > For the umpteenth time "the SOL" is just an acronym for the 
> > interpretation that says that the intellectual level is the S/O
> > distinction, but this is MOQ's view of intellect.

Ron:
> which level is MoQ viewing this from?

Bodvar:
>From its meta-view of course.

Ron:
What meta-view? please explain

Bodvar:  
> > Intellect itself knows no Quality context's so from its  internal view
> > (i.e. SOM)  social value is as you say: subjective, superfluous,
> > meaninglesss ..etc. because it is JUST IN PEOPLE'S MINDS  

Ron:
> So how does value enter into the SOL interpretation? you imply an
> external view,  but from where? there are only four levels of static
> definable quality and MoQ which you state is reality. If reality is
> indefinable, one can't really say anything about MoQ, anything that is
> said is static pattern and s/o.

Bodvar:
Value enters by the Reality=Quality=DQ/SQ postulate. This can't be 
proved (as little as the S/O postulate can) only by showing that this 
metaphysical arrangement makes for a paradox-free existence does it 
earn its laurels. The dynamic part is indefinable, but a lot can be said 
about the static part.

Ron:
So you do offer a fifth level, a meta-intellectual level. It's the only way to 
make SOL work  as you say it does.

> But how can intellectual value be different than an intellectual 
> pattern. S/O is the value of the intellectual level.

Bodvar:
I'm not all sure what you ask or object to. But to repeat: Pirsig did not 
define ANY level. Inorganic, biological and social are self-evident and 
so is intellect, it DOES mean the ability to distinguish between 
subjective emotions and  objective reason, but for some - um - reason 
it has come to mean all mental activity. So, the S/O as intellect is no 
oddball notion but solid MOQ.    

Ron:
Your offering another level, I get that, why not just come right out and say it.
Maybe because it is'nt the MoQ Pirsig explains?

> How will MoQ control intellect when it is out of intellect?

Bodvar:
The levels can only be controlled by a new level, thus intellect can only 
be checked by the MOQ as something beyond - out of - intellect. This 
level-like relationship between the 4th static level and the "system" it is 
part of is a bit strange, however it's not every day an upheaval like this 
takes place.  

Ron:
That is because it violates the container logic, the one you keep insisting
can't be violated, but you violate it anyway and call it "strange" and 
a "upheavel". What you grasp for is another level.

> what is it going to use? not intellect that would be subordinating an
> upper level  to a lower level, which goes against your SOL.  

Bodvar:
Going back a couple of steps, society controls biology by making 
organisms social entities, intellect controls "society" by making its 
values into objects of intellectual study. Likewise the MOQ has made 
the subject/object split into a static subset of itself  called "intellect". 
Nothing goes against the SOL because it is the MOQ! 

Ron:
Container logic Bo, you introduce a self refferential system, it creates
paradoxes in meaning.











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