[MD] expanded list Platt

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[John]
but I don't see much helpful insight in the phrasing "life reacts
biologically". 

[Arlo]
My point is that "life" is a synonym for "biological patterns". But
"intelligent" (IMO) is not. If "life" and "intelligence" are synonyms, as you
suggest, the word "intelligent" is rendered meaningless.

[Arlo had asked]
I know you are going to keep disagreeing, but answer me this: what specifically
do you see an earthworm do that a ribosome does not. Not degree, mind you, but
something entirely differently.... for which there exists no analogous parallel
in a ribosome, or proton.

[John]
Movement.

[Arlo]
Ribosomes and protons move.

[John]
Sexual Procreation.

[Arlo]
Equates to "intelligent"? Well, "cells" not do this, so I guess that removes
your ability to call them "intelligent".

[John]
Biochemical predator response. 

[Arlo]
Tautology? Nonetheless, we see analogous things among viruses. Does this mean
it has to be aggressive and evidence killing other "things" to be
"intelligent"? 

[John]
Heck, just getting their little wormy asses out of the mud when it rains show a
hell of a lot more initiative than any mere amoeba could ever exhibit.

[Arlo]
Sure it does. Never said worms did not evidence more or greater responses than
an amoeba (been arguing all along the exact opposite!). The point is, the
behavior of the worm has analogies in amoebas and protons. All "respond to
their environment", seek to move from "low quality environments", etc.

[John]
And really Arlo, Protons?   Have you ever had any kind of intelligent
discussion with a proton?

[Arlo]
Never had one with a worm either. "Discussions" are possible only between
sufficiently complex, neurally-enabled and (proto)social species. 

[John]
I mean, earthworms are pretty boring, but a proton?

[Arlo]
Well, John the Worm Whisperer, what do you worms talk to you about?

[John]
Argh!  Intellect.  Not intelligence.  That's the main point of my distinction
between intellect and intelligence, that intelligence is what life does, but
intellect is what socialized life does. it's an important point for me.  Don't
conflate, now, you bad boy you.

[Arlo]
I don't buy the distinction. Its unnecessary and inherently problematic. 

[Arlo had asked]
If life existed before matter, where? How?

[John]
If it didn't, also where? 

[Arlo]
Nowhere. Life did not exist before inorganic patterns evolved a certain
threshold of complexity.

[John]
How?

[Arlo]
Like everything else evolutionary, the result of an unintended aspect of this
process. 

[John]
Anyway, without a life to detect and define time, "before" has no meaning.

[Arlo]
Well now you've avoided the question. But okay, if "social patterns" existed
before "biological patterns", where?

[John]
Why, academics, of course.  Do I get my  "A" now?

[Arlo]
I'm not the gradey type.