[MD] expanded list Platt

[John Carl]

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 6:18 AM, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

> [John]
> but I don't see much helpful insight in the phrasing "life reacts
> biologically".
>
> [Arlo]
> My point is that "life" is a synonym for "biological patterns". But
> "intelligent" (IMO) is not. If "life" and "intelligence" are synonyms, as
> you
> suggest, the word "intelligent" is rendered meaningless.
>
>
John:

Not so.  For life is an absolute demarcation of being.  Amoebas got it.  I
got it, birdies got it, etc.  But intelligence is an attribute  of life and
it's an  open question whether single cell organisms possess it.





> [Arlo had asked]
> I know you are going to keep disagreeing, but answer me this: what
> specifically
> do you see an earthworm do that a ribosome does not. Not degree, mind you,
> but
> something entirely differently.... for which there exists no analogous
> parallel
> in a ribosome, or proton.
>
> [John]
> Movement.
>
> [Arlo]
> Ribosomes and protons move.
>

John:  Sure, we're all whirling through the universe about a million miles
an hour.  I'm talking purposive movement.  Wiggling that gets you from a to
b,   because  be  seems better than  a,



>
> [John]
> Sexual Procreation.
>
> [Arlo]
> Equates to "intelligent"? Well, "cells" not do this, so I guess that
> removes
> your ability to call them "intelligent".
>

John:

I'm pretty iffy about whether cells possess intelligence.



>
> [John]
> Biochemical predator response.
>
> [Arlo]
> Tautology? Nonetheless, we see analogous things among viruses. Does this
> mean
> it has to be aggressive and evidence killing other "things" to be
> "intelligent"?
>
>
John:  I was thinking about slimey and foul-tasting secretions that worms
use when they feel threatened.  Not the internal biochemical system that
makes up their nervous system.

And that's not killing, that's defense.  Most everything alive suffers
predation.  I don't see this occuring with protons.



>
> [Arlo]
> Well, John the Worm Whisperer, what do you worms talk to you about?
>
>

John:  Well it's not verbal communication on their part, just mine.  I
encourage them to breed and grow more and they respond by doing so, or not
doing so; depending upon circumstance.

I analyze their responses and adjust their circumstances accordingly.

Admittedly, these are tame worms.  I don't talk to wild ones much except by
way of friendly greeting.  "hey worm, howzit goin'"


See, the thing is, with worm castings being such a popular garden additive,
and with so much marijuana cultivation going on around this area, worm
castings sell for $70 a pound.

$70 a pound!

It makes being a worm whisperer a rather high calling.



> [John]
> Argh!  Intellect.  Not intelligence.  That's the main point of my
> distinction
> between intellect and intelligence, that intelligence is what life does,
> but
> intellect is what socialized life does. it's an important point for me.
>  Don't
> conflate, now, you bad boy you.
>
> [Arlo]
> I don't buy the distinction. Its unnecessary and inherently problematic.
>

John:

Fine.  Be that way.  I'll sic Bo on you then.





>
> [Arlo had asked]
> If life existed before matter, where? How?
>
> [John]
> If it didn't, also where?
>
> [Arlo]
> Nowhere. Life did not exist before inorganic patterns evolved a certain
> threshold of complexity.
>
>
John:  But since you define life by "a certain threshold of complexity",
I've caught you out in another tautological formulation.

tsk tsk.

Don't feel bad tho.  Most knowledge is, ya know.  It all comes around in a
circle eventually anyway, why not just get back as  directly as possible.

Like authority always has to fall back eventually upon, "because I said so,
that's why."


>
> [John]
> Anyway, without a life to detect and define time, "before" has no meaning.
>
> [Arlo]
> Well now you've avoided the question. But okay, if "social patterns"
> existed
> before "biological patterns", where?
>
>
John:

Same answer.  Space also being a life-created construct.  Refresh your
memory here. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentrism_%28c%29>.



> [John]
> Why, academics, of course.  Do I get my  "A" now?
>
> [Arlo]
> I'm not the gradey type.
>
>
John:

Me neither.  No wonder we get along so wonderfully.