[MD] the sophists

[MarshaV]

'Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and 
Possibility' by James Carse was a book you recommended.
It is not rationalizing my way out of a dialogue, but quitting 
a fools game.   
 
Btw, thanks for the recommendation, it was a very good book :-)   


On May 14, 2010, at 8:57 AM, MarshaV wrote:

> 
> On May 14, 2010, at 8:52 AM, Arlo Bensinger wrote:
> 
>> [Marsha]
>> RMP does not reference SOM in ZMM.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> Talk about word games! No, he does not use the triad-lexical of "subject-object metaphysics", but even is quite clear in what he is condemning.
> 
> Your interpretation is, I'm sure, quite clear to you.  Mine is quite clear to me.  
> 
> 
>> "And so: he rejected the left horn. Quality is not objective, he said. It doesn't reside in the material world.
>> 
>> Then: he rejected the right horn. Quality is not subjective, he said. It doesn't reside merely in the mind.
>> 
>> And finally: Phædrus, following a path that to his knowledge had never been taken before in the history of Western thought, went straight between the horns of the subjectivity-objectivity dilemma and said Quality is neither a part of mind, nor is it a part of matter. It is a third entity which is independent of the two." (ZMM)
>> 
>> "Man is not the source of all things, as the subjective idealists would say. Nor is he the passive observer of all things, as the objective idealists and materialists would say." (ZMM)
>> 
>> He later formalizes the term "SOM" to describe the opposing traditions of dominance in Western thought, but to suggest in any way that the Sophists were peddling "SOM" is ridiculous. Indeed, Marsha, if you're gonna bend over that far to make SOL work for you, I suggest a new career in the circus.
> 
> Bye...   
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> [Marsha]
>> To say the intellectual level could have been different is much like saying human being could have evolved with wings and flippers:  Idle speculation.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> Well, first, one point is the SOL says it NEVER could be any other way. Intellect IS SOM. There could never be an intellect that is NOT. Pirsig's entire thesis revolves around the fact that it COULD, and moreover that it SHOULD, have evolved differently in the West had it followed a different trajectory. Its not mere "idle speculation", this is the entire POINT to ZMM.
>> 
>> [Marsha]
>> I know I can quit this verbal game at any time.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> So do it, Marsha. If you need to think you are the victim of some "game", if that's the only way you rationalize yourself out of a dialogue you can't substantiate, then do it. What do I care?
>> 
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