[MD] the sophists

[MarshaV]

HI Bo,

I am in full agreement. My comment to Arlo had to do more 
with his question which I thought confusing.


Marsha
 
 




                                                          
         

                    

On May 15, 2010, at 8:56 AM, skutvik at online.no wrote:

> Marsha, Arlo, All:
> 
> Marsha to Arlo 
>> RMP does not reference SOM in ZMM.  In my interpretation the
>> Sophists see the world as relative. Plato&company see the world
>> filled with fixed, concrete , external objects; objects of
>> knowledge, objects of study, SOM.  Experience as relative, dependent
>> of value, is what Phaedrus recognized in the sophists as 'better'.  
> 
> Marsha you may be right about ZAMM not coining the SOM 
> abbreviation but it speaks about the subject/object constellation as a 
> metaphysics. However it did NOT reach the final MOQ, its proto-moq 
> only had one static fall-out, namely the very S/O and that event is what 
> the Aretê - Plato transition describes. 
> 
> However, we have the final MOQ at our disposal and from there the 
> said ZAMM event looks like this: Plato represents intellect's objective 
> side and the Sophists its subjective side ..... Nota Bene ... the way 
> SOM came to evolve up through the centuries and millennias, at the 
> actual time however it was perceived by Plato as a deadly struggle for 
> something of outmost importance, namely TRUTH against the 
> dangerous "man" and his fleeting and capricious whims", while the 
> Sophists just wanted to throw spanners into Plato's machinery    
> 
> Look to this quote from ZAMM: (My brackets and caps).
> 
>    To Phædrus, this backlight from the conflict between the 
>    Sophists and the Cosmologists adds an entirely new 
>    dimension to the Dialogues of Plato [The "cosmologists" were 
>    the materialists faction of the eralier first quest for eternal 
>    principles in contrast to Parmenides who claimed that the most 
>    eternal principle was "nous" (something that can be called 
>    mind] Socrates is not just expounding noble ideas in a 
>    vacuum. He is in the middle of a war between those who think 
>    truth is absolute and those who think truth is relative. He is 
>    fighting that war with everything he has. The Sophists are the 
>    enemy. Now Plato's hatred of the Sophists makes sense. He 
>    and Socrates are defending the Immortal Principle of the 
>    Cosmologists against what they consider to be the decadence 
>    of the Sophists. Truth. Knowledge. That which is independent 
>    of what anyone thinks about it. The ideal that Socrates died 
>    for. The ideal that Greece alone possesses for the first time in 
>    the history of the world. It is still a very fragile thing. It can 
>    disappear completely. Plato abhors and damns the Sophists 
>    without restraint, not because they are low and immoral 
>    people...there are obviously much lower and more immoral 
>    people in Greece he completely ignores. HE DAMNS THEM 
>    BECAUSE THEY THREATEN MANKIND'S FIRST 
>    BEGINNING GRASP OF THE IDEA OF TRUTH. THAT'S 
>    WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. The results of Socrates' martyrdom 
>    and Plato's unexcelled prose that followed are nothing less 
>    than the whole world of Western man as we know it. If the idea 
>    of truth had been allowed to perish unrediscovered by the 
>    Renaissance it's unlikely that we would be much beyond the 
>    level of prehistoric man today. The ideas of science and 
>    technology and other systematically organized efforts of man 
>    are dead-centered on it. It is the nucleus of it all.    
> 
> 
> See, this is the objective part of what the MOQ calls the  intellectual 
> level, but like up needs down, objectivity - Truth - needed a subjective 
> illusory scapegoat, therefore the negatives belongs to intellect's 
> repertoire, yet as time went by it came to be used against everything 
> belonging to the past i.e. what we know as the social level.     
> 
> Marsha:
> 
>> There is no rewriting, there is a difference in interpretation. 
> 
> Spot on!
> 
> Bodvar
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