[MD] Relativism

Fri May 21 03:02:43 PDT 2010

On May 20, 2010, at 10:19 PM, X Acto wrote:

> 
> I think Objective truth is a cultural value a value not shared by all
> human cultures, ones who value the good in lieu of the truth.
> 
> I think it really limits this explaination by confining all human intellectual
> value to the value of objecive truth.

Hi Ron.

I understand this to be what you think.  

Marsha 

> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 3:21:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Relativism
> 
> 
> Ron,
> 
> How does James represent a greater explanatory power for the MoQ?
> 
> 
> Marsha 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 19, 2010, at 9:49 PM, X Acto wrote:
> 
>> Steve,
>> Dave has provided several quotes over the course of this arguement. Which 
>> stated that Rorty felt that any epistomologial theory of truth is meaningless,
>> Dave points out that this is true if one is speaking to the context of objective
>> truth in an ontological way.
> 
>> Objective truth is culturally derrived. Pirsig and James remark how truth
>> is a species of the good. Connecting truth and experience, that is why
>> everyone can agree to "the good" but disagree over the truth.
>> 
>> Which is one good reason Bo's SOL fails to explain how DQ/SQ has greater
>> explanitory power.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Steven Peterson <peterson.steve at gmail.com>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 7:13:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Relativism
>> 
>> Hi DMB,
>> 
>> Steve said:
>> 
>> ... It is easy to see how an SOMer would call Rorty and James
>> relativists since they deny ontological objectivity, but I can't see
>> how you can give a pragmatic account of relativism that condemns Rorty
>> and not James and Pirsig.
>> 
>> dmb says:
>> 
>> I doubt that Rorty denies that there is an objective reality. He just
>> thinks we can't have access to it.
>> 
>> 
>> Steve:
>> I suppose it wouldn't even matter if I provided 10 Rorty quotes that
>> contradict this claim. You'll just keep saying it.
>> 
>> 
>> DMB:
>> That's why, for Rorty, justification strictly discursive and has
>> nothing to do with experience per se. But that doesn't matter because
>> the pragmatic theory of truth rejects the idea of objective reality
>> WITHOUT also rejecting the epistemic value of experience. It is
>> empiricism without SOM. So, if you understand what empirical
>> restraints are and you understand what conversational restraints are
>> then you should be able to understand how James and Pirsig differ from
>> Rorty.
>> 
>> 
>> Steve:
>> I don't think you've added anything to conversational constraints on
>> knowledge by talking about "the epistemic value of experience." It's
>> not like Rorty can't justify a belief by saying talking about his
>> experience. Experience is included in "conversational constraints."
>> Its just that talk about experience when providing a rationale for a
>> belief is still talk. It's not that Rorty "rejects the epistemic value
>> of experience," it's just that he gets all that we can get from
>> experience in justifying beliefs by talking about conversation.
>> 
>> If there really is something that Rorty is missing as far as
>> epistemology, then you should be able to tell me the sort of argument
>> that James and Pirsig could use to justify a belief that Rorty is
>> unable to use. You never have offered such an argument, and I don't
>> think you ever will because I don't think you can. Go ahead. Prove me
>> wrong.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Steve said:
>>> Is his position against slavery somehow on shakier ground than yours? I can't see how.
>>> 
>>> dmb says:
>>> 
>>> He tells us that his position against slavery, fundamentalism and Nazism has no ground whatsoever. It would be a significant improvement for Rorty to be a shaky ground.
>> 
>> 
>> Steve:
>> Well that's just it. If you are looking for a foundation for claiming
>> that slavery is bad and are unsatisfied with really good arguments
>> that slavery is bad, then you might start talking about
>> absolutism/relativism. But if you are then you aren't doing
>> pragmatism. You, Dave, are a closet foundationalist, and you think
>> radical empiricism can give you an empirical foundation. Pirsig never
>> thought it could. He appeals to his hierarchy of value patterns rather
>> than radical empiricism to make moral arguments and says that James's
>> radical empiricism and pragmatism alone could be used by the Nazis to
>> defend their beliefs.
>> 
>> Below Pirsig talks about the epistemology and says that the harmony
>> between our reasonings and those of others is the only basis for
>> claims to objectivity. He knows of no "empirical constraints" on our
>> reasoning beyond our communications with other humans. It is  such
>> communication--such conversational constraints--that are the only
>> basis for knowledge claims.
>> 
>> ZAMM: "What guarantees the objectivity of the world in which we live
>> is that this world is common to us with other thinking beings. Through
>> the communications that we have with other men we receive from them
>> ready-made harmonious reasonings. We know that these reasonings do not
>> come from us and at the same time we recognize in them, because of
>> their harmony, the work of reasonable beings like ourselves. And as
>> these reasonings appear to fit the world of our sensations, we think
>> we may infer that these reasonable beings have seen the same thing as
>> we; thus it is that we know we haven't been dreaming. It is this
>> harmony, this quality if you will, that is the sole basis for the only
>> reality we can ever know."
>> 
>> Best,
>> Steve
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