[MD] socialism

[MarshaV]

Go ahead, Marsha, to try to describe it anyway...   


On May 31, 2010, at 11:57 AM, John Carl wrote:

> Well it's an interesting debate.  What do you mean by "pattern"?  Is a
> pattern created by the mind that observes it?

That's why I like to consider a pattern, such as tree, from the
opposite-from-non-tree point-of-view, or justice from the 
opposite-from-non-justice.  It's seems the best way of 
describing a pattern other than 'not this, not that'.  

What is mind?  There's another concept that is confusing to one and 
all.  If you want to say that patterns as memory are held in an individual's 
mind, I wouldn't argue, it sounds good, but, again, what is mind?  A materialist 
might say its the brain.  An MoQist would say its a pattern, or maybe a 
cluster of patterns.  


> Then it's all in your head and without observation, doesn't exist.

From what I understand the physical act of seeing involves  color 
and shape, and that is all.  The rest is done conceptualized.  The 
unpatterned experience I have had were with full awarees, but  
without recognition of of color, form or any kind of identity. 


> Is a pattern a "thing" floating out there waiting to be recognized?  Then
> that's objectivism or SOM  or realism, all denigrated by the MoQ.

I would think that pattern is memory.  Certainly not a thing-in-itself.   


> Patterning is then, equivalent to Quality,   Thus by the MoQ light,
> unpatterned=non-existent.

Static patterns of value???   It is curious to experience without the 
patterns, to know all that is value-added.  hahaha


> 
> I think  you use "unpatterned" to designate "non-intellectual".  I agree
> that non-intellectual awareness exists, but I don't agree that "unpatterned
> awareness" makes any sense.

Without form and color seems it would be an experience without conception and
without perception. What else is there?  There was one thing: full awareness.  It 
wasn't like I blanked out or anything,  I was fully aware.  

My telling always sounds nuts, even to me.   


> Now that I consider this argument, it seems to me that if we could clear up
> the distinction between patterning and intellectualizing, we'd clear up the
> issue of the 4th level being SOM.

What is intellectualizing if not processing intellectual patterns?  

> 
> Sounds good to me!  Let's do it.


A piece of cake ;-)    


Marsha





> 
> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 8:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On May 31, 2010, at 10:59 AM, John Carl wrote:
>> 
>>> I just have to say this every now and then as a reminder of sanity:
>>> 
>>> There's no such thing as "unpatterned experience".  All experience is a
>>> pattern.
>> 
>> John,
>> 
>> Say it all you want, but I disagree.
>> 
>> If there are no patterns slapped on experience you have unpatterned
>> experience.  One can, with full awareness, see without recognizing
>> form or color or anything else.  That is what I am calling unpatterned
>> experience.
>> 
>> Maybe you think I'm meaning something more spectacular?  It's like
>> awareness full on, mind full off.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> There's no such thing as "undifferentiated awareness".  All awareness is
>>> differentiation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> There.  I feel better now.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sometimes experience is beyond making sense.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> True!  But just because a pattern is not recognized as "sense", doesn't
>> mean
>>> its not a pattern anyway.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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___