[MD] A Different Approach - Networks and Stacks

[118]

Hi Ian,
I would agree with this.  Quality can be described relationally.  I touched
on this in my first post on Quality in my recent re-initiation of
discussion.  This is different from relativism due to the absence of
objects.  Such relational measurements whether they be mathematical or
conceptual drives the appearance of nodes as you say, and not the other way
around.  Such relationality drives growth or change through a pulling
mechanism (yet to be described).  So Quality as a description as that which
separates.

Mark

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Ian <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:

> That network of relations is the way I see the world most fundamentally -
> quality is about those relations. The levels are emergent when certain
> patterns of complexity are reached in the arrangements of those relations.
>
> There is no fundamental level of granularity in the nodes connected, no
> real objects. Each level has pragmatic conventional nodes involved in the
> relations, but the relations are more fundamental than the subjects or
> objects at either end.
>
> Sent from my android device on the 3rd rock from the centre of the most
> recent big bang.
>
> Ian
>
> On 7 Nov 2010, at 11:07, Horse <horse at darkstar.uk.net> wrote:
>
>  Hi Mark
>>
>> As I was reading your post what popped into my head as I was trying to
>> visualise what you were saying was a sort of network representation (I have
>> a thing about DQ/SQ and the network approach!) with nodes as quality events
>> and their separation as the arcs (vectors) between them. My visualisation
>> was sort of multi-dimensional in order to accommodate the different forms of
>> SQ (Inorg/Org/Soc/Int) and the way in which the levels emerge but against a
>> background (container?) of DQ. So the combination is all-encompassing
>> Quality.
>> Also, given a multi-dimensional approach this might also accommodate
>> Magnus's Stacks idea with a network (nodes and vectors/arcs) based
>> visualisation.
>> Does this add anything to what you're describing?
>>
>> Horse
>>
>>
>> On 07/11/2010 07:33, 118 wrote:
>>
>>> Recently I have been suggesting a description of Quality (Q) as "that
>>> which
>>> separates".  This is of course an analogy which provides a path to
>>> Quality,
>>> or in other words, a finger which is pointing towards it.  Such an
>>> interpretation emphasizes that which separates Static Qualities (SQ),
>>> rather
>>> than what they are.  The interpreted separation, which could also be
>>> approximated by Assigned Value (AS), is ever changing, thus creating a
>>> concept of Dynamic Quality (DQ).  When two things are compared, or two
>>> choices are contemplated, it is the difference between the two that is
>>> the
>>> intuited concept.
>>>
>>> Such a concept converts the objects or subjects themselves, and their
>>> dynamic interaction, to the Quality between.  Approaching the notion of
>>> Quality in this way, provides a shift in view or paradigm, that results
>>> in
>>> an evaluation of the cause rather than the product.  The degree of
>>> separation of good and bad concepts would be a function of that which
>>> separates them, or Quality.  This suggests measurement of Quality, but
>>> such
>>> a thing can be avoided by stating that such measurement is meaningless
>>> since
>>> the objects are not real in themselves but simply a function of Quality,
>>> and
>>> as such do not provide inherent characteristics for measurement.   The
>>> nonexistence of the things themselves could be imparted by describing
>>> them
>>> as geometric points, which are dimensionless.  Or like the borders of the
>>> combined DQ and SQ which are again without dimensions but only describe
>>> the
>>> limits of apparent Quality as it is applied to specific examples.
>>>  Personal
>>> or subjective sense of Quality would then become universal since it does
>>> not
>>> rely on our opinions of the things themselves.  Quality itself would
>>> remain
>>> untouched, as a primary (or absolute) creator.
>>>
>>> In a broader sense, one could describe the Chinese concept of Yin and
>>> Yang
>>> not as opposing dynamic entities, but rather ones which are separated
>>> through Quality.  Quality viewed in this way would approximate the Tao,
>>> but
>>> in a modern rational sense.  It provides a conceptual understanding of a
>>> description of Quality in both its static and dynamic forms, as well as
>>> an
>>> ineffable principle of separation.  The difference with Taoism is the
>>> empirical notion of direction, as with Time.  Time itself is a function
>>> of
>>> the pressure that (DQ) puts on change.  Such change creates static
>>> dissimilarities which result in preference.  Preference implies choice.
>>>  Such choice is directed by Quality, and could be seen as a vector with
>>> direction.  The vector is not one in dimensional space, but is in the
>>> metaphysical space of Quality.  The concept of betterness could be used
>>> as a
>>> description of that direction.  The magnitude of such direction on a time
>>> basis, is a direct result of the accumulation of dynamic quality.  Such
>>> accumulation is a result of harmonic tendencies of Quality's expression.
>>>
>>> In terms of the human mind, such separation results in the appearance of
>>> SQ,
>>> and the notion of DQ, as a result of the transfer of an infinite amount
>>> of
>>> information into simplified neuronal descriptions which appear isolated
>>> from
>>> each other.  Such descriptions could be seen as the tendency of Quality
>>> towards its static appearce.  The unifying factor is Quality, which is
>>> missed, because we do not consider this separation, only the descriptions
>>> themselves.  An analogy in physics would be something like a magnetic
>>> field.
>>>  If two magnets attract each other, the strength of that attraction would
>>> not be the result of the strengths of each magnet.  Instead, the
>>> strengths
>>> of each magnet would be created by the magnetic field as first cause.
>>>  This
>>> would be a flip in how the interaction between the two magnets is
>>> conceptualized.  In the same way, colors are different not due to some
>>> inherent property of the colors, but due to an inherent property of what
>>> separates them.  Two things appear differently due to the intrusion of
>>> Quality.  Since the objects themselves do not exist outside of this
>>> separation, Quality encompasses them and becomes the source of
>>> everything.
>>>  Another way to look at it is as the spaces between letters on a page.
>>>  Words are created by the white portion of the page, not the black.
>>>
>>> This form of description is not difficult to grasp in theory.  The
>>> difficulty comes from trying to conceptualize the world in this way
>>> because
>>> our training or education has been based on just the opposite.  Such a
>>> paradigm shift could happen slowly with practice.  One Zen practice is to
>>> stop labeling or naming things one sees, but rather to look between such
>>> things with a more holistic sense.  In the same way, the codependent
>>> arising
>>> of things could be simplified into the ebb and flow of DQ, or the
>>> tendencies
>>> of Quality.
>>>
>>> Just a rough thought, open for discussion if desired.  The intent is to
>>> provide a framework for easy transfer to the beginning student.  I'm sure
>>> there are many problems with it, at least in such a simple description
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
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>>>
>> --
>>
>> "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
>> deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
>> — Frank Zappa
>>
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