[MD] Is this the inadequacy of the MOQ?

[rapsncows at fastmail.fm]

John,
I hope I don't have to cut too much value from my response!,
Tim

> john:
> 
> I just read something apropos, along these lines.  "the" interpreter is
> different, but 'your' interpreter depends upon your perspective.  From
> the
> perspective of earth, heaven interprets.  From the perspective of heaven,
> it
> is the Way that interprets.  And from the perspective of the way (tao),
> it
> is nature that interprets.
> 
> and yeah, I think I got the physics to back it up.... The Tao of Physics.
> 

[Tim]
sounds to be close too.  I might put this at the top of my to read list.
 But... if it 'backed it up' the way I might imagine I think I would
have read it by now.  Either way, I'm a big fan of re-inventing the
wheel so I bet we all here would have something to add.

> 
> 
> >
> > I was talking with Marsh about ultimate truth, and I argued that it is
> > 'a thing, qua thing."  then I saw a post from John Carl, titled
> > something about 'pragmatism', oh yea, and the plains indians; he re-drew
> > my attention to the end of 'Lila', last paragraph, "good is a noun".
> > maybe there is something here...
> >
> 
> john:
> 
> "something" indeed, tim.  I agree completely.  Something very slippery to
> grasp, however.  An idea worthy of mediation and meditation's goal.
> Definitely a "something".
> 

[Tim]
"something"...  Hey, That's MY word!  ...  Nice.



> john:  Is this the same thing that Mark and Ham were on about?  A koncept
> and a conceptualization?

[Tim]
I'm not sure; I didn't follow that conversation as closely as I might
have.

> [John]  Marks point really clicked home because of the
> contrast between an image and the word, but over all  that idea of the
> bifurcated brain has really grabbed me lately, with a nod towards a
> philosopher chick I recently experienced via the magic of internet. 
> Here's
> her link <http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/30995713?ref=nf>, which is pretty
> cool, (long tho!)  You'll have to wade through about an hour of her
...
  Heart as well as mind, but like John Dewey and Platt say, Art
> should
> be aknowledged as the leader in this dance, and not as an afterthought.
> 
> Is stuff I've been thinking in my chit'shat fashion.
> 

[Tim]
Hopefully I will get to that video before too long.

about art, and its being the leader, well, I'm skeptical.  I can
understand beauty as an accompaniment, and even perhaps as the quickest
(maybe fear is faster though) route to active perception of what's
'important', but I don't see beauty in itself as a sufficient goal.  I
haven't spoken with Platt yet, but I wonder... nevermind.  The garden of
eden was great and all, but man needed the bone of his bone, and flesh
of his flesh.  And, the garden of eden was great and all, but God was
building up to Man - if I can use this resource.


>[John] Marsha hates all that miracle talk.  Even tho she is one.
> 

[Tim]
haha!  She sure is.
 
> 
> > [Tim] What permits a will of the faithful I to animate matter?
> >
> 
> 
> [John] You say "miracle", I can't disagree.

[Tim]
'miracle' wasn't in my lexicon until a few days ago.  I am playing with
it now; certainly I am not wedded to it.  Just to be sure.

>[John]  Thus DQ, representing ineffability is not a concept (nor,
> Ham,
> a conceptualization) but a description of a process.
> 
> The preceding *feels* pretty good, but I'll have to let it stew and
> simmer a
> bit.  It  might be half-baked.

[Tim]
Yea, you might have lost me here a bit.  Also I don't have the
background in the distinctions to help sort it out.  You might have had
a bit of a slip between thought and typing in that DQ is a process, but
the description of the memories of it is itself a static pattern...

> >
> 
> [John] Yes!  That the process works, IS the miracle.  I agree completely.  It's
> extraordinary on different levels and from different directions.  I just
> got
> a book back from a friend that I loaned him, so was able to read an old
> favorite of mine, Demon Box, An Essay, by Ken Kesey. 

[Tim]
"... on different levels and from different direction."  Yes.  I think
that quality cannot be 'simple'.

this suggestion will go on the list too; thanks.



>[John] Let us say dreams, rather than illusions.  For illusions are lies, but
> dreams can be true.
> 

[Tim]
hmmm... I'll have to think about this distinction.
 

> 
>[John] The following [my analogy], btw, is *very* good.

[Tim]
Thanks.  It seems to be helping me quite a bit.
> 

> >
> [John] When your dream comes true!  Exactly.

[Tim]
perhaps the distinction is becoming clearer for me already.

--- I cut out two compliments now: I don't know what to say!  But
thanks.  I'm real glad to have pressed 'send' with taht first post.


>[John] I myself have no problems at all with the idea of society.  It's the
> experience of society that gives me fits!  I'm waiting for my dreams to
> come
> true on that one.
> 

[Tim]
now I'm confused about teh distinction between 'dream' and 'illusion'
again.  Just kidding.  But barely.


> 
>[John] Well I offer you Perls wisdom, I guess it was a big thing in the 60's and
> 70's, tho to tell the truth, I'd never heard of it before yesterday,
> looking
> up Fritz on wiki.
> 
> The Gestalt Prayer:
> 
> I do my thing and you do your thing.
> I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
> And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
> You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we find each other, it's
> beautiful.
> If not, it can't be helped.
> 
> deal with it.
> 
> (ok, that last one was my own addendum :)

> Thanks for dealing with it, Tim,
> 
> John

[Tim]
and thank you,
all the best,
Tim
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