[MD] [Bulk] Re: Humanism

[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Mark]
If MOQ is anti-theist as Pirsig considers I don't need to pursue the why, I can
move on.  I don't think that stance has any effect on the MOQ.

[Arlo]
I re-read this a few times, because something wasn't gelling for me, and I
realized its the "the" at the end. And this kinda gets back to my conversation
with Bo about "a MOQ" versus "the MOQ". 

In the former, we are talking about ideas that different people have and we can
discuss the relative merits of those beliefs. In the second, we are trapped in
a dialogue about "who is right about *the* MOQ". Does this make sense?

Obviously, I prefer "a MOQ", and we can talk about Pirsig's ideas, even as the
seminal foundation of the dialogue, but when you disagree you can say "a MOQ
that was openly theist is better than a MOQ that is anti-theistic", and then
you can explain why. So we'd have like a debate between Pirisig's ideas and
Mark's revision of them.

In the "the" frame, we are back to arguing about whether Pirsig "meant" what he
said or if he was wrong about his own ideas. The debate here is about who is
right about The One True MOQ, and this makes little sense to me.

I think the problem is that many seem trapped in the latter, and the question
that should be "is a theistic MOQ better than an anti-theistic MOQ" remains "is
*the* MOQ theistic or anti-theistic". As I said to Bo, I think Pirsig's use of
the narrative device "The MOQ says..." is a source of confusion for many, even
though Pirsig commented that in place of it he would have had to write "I,
Robert Pirsig, say...". Obviously, "The MOQ" says nothing, Pirsig does, I do,
you do, DMB does, Marsha does, Horse does, etc. 

So when people ask "what does The MOQ say?", I read this as "what does Robert
Pirsig say?" Obviously you can disagree and offer something you feel is better,
and this is captured by changing the frame from "the MOQ" to "a MOQ". Again,
does this make sense? 

[Mark]
I do find authority of any kind threatening as you know. 

[Arlo]
Matt Kundert wrote an excellent essay addressing this, and if you have not read
it I highly recommend it.

http://www.moq.org/forum/Kundert/pirsiginstitutionalized/pirsiginstitutionalized.html