[MD] Intellectual Level

[Platt Holden]

Hi Horse,

Response below.

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Horse <horse at darkstar.uk.net> wrote:

> Hi Platt
>
> So far you've said:
>
> [Platt]
> All words, numbers, punctuation and other aspects of language are imaginary
> symbols, imaginary meaning "not real."
>
> [Platt]
> As I stated and now repeat, all words like "Subjects" and "Objects" and
> "levels" are imaginary symbols.
> The word "Objects" is an imaginary symbol.
> The words "a rock", "a plant" and "a pig" are all imaginary symbols.
>
> The above was in relation to your comment:
>
> [Platt]
> SOM is the level of manipulation of imaginary symbols which are taken by
> some to have the same reality as concrete material existence.
>
> You also said:
>
> [Platt]
>
> I have already shown you Note 25 where he says the intellectual level is
> the level of manipulation of symbols. In Lila he describes metaphysics as
> like a menu without food, i.e. imaginary. If you want to assuage your hunger
> by eating the menu, good luck with that.
>


> Horse
> I cannot see any reference by Pirsig to show that symbols are imaginary or
> not real so in what sense are you using the word 'real'?
> Do you mean that something is not real if it does not physically exist? Do
> you mean that if something is not real then it has no existence or is not
> any part of reality - i.e. it cannot be experienced? Or do you mean
> something else?
>

Platt
I'm using "real" in the mystic sense. It is experienced in many ways prior
to thought. Meditation is one of those ways. Perhaps this from Lila will
make my position clearer:

"(Mystics) share a common belief that the fundamental nature of reality is
outside language; that language splits things up into parts while the true
nature of reality is undivided. Zen, which is a mystic religion, argues that
the illusion of dividedness can be overcome by meditation." (Lila,5)

Key words - "fundamental reality" "outside language"  "illusion" - thus
words, analogues, thoughts are imaginary, that is, symbols created by the
mind, easily manipulated "to find or make a reason for everything one has a
mind to do."

As Pirsig wrote in ZAMM, "We create the world in which we live. All of it.
Every last bit of it," and we call what we invent "reality." But, as
semanticists wisely point out, "The word is NOT the thing."

As s connoisseur of music, you must know whereof I (and Pirsig) speak.