[MD] Rorty and Mysticism

[MarshaV]

On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:56 AM, John Carl wrote:

> Marsha,
> 
>> John earlier:
>>  
>> I wonder if you could tell me the cash value of pre-conceptual experience?
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Why don't you find out for yourself?  Being a skeptic, I think that might
>> be
>> the only way you might appreciate its value, especially when words are
>> so much less than the experience and you are prone to needing proof.
>> 
>> 
> John:
> What occured to me Marsha, is that I have no way of doing this thing, or not
> doing it.  See?  If we're talking about the tiny slice of time which occurs
> right before I conceptualize, well.... doesn't that just happen naturally of
> itself, each and every moment of my life?  The train chugs along, at least
> until I die.  Experience unfolds and I conceptualize that experience.  Even
> if the part of experience that occurs before the conceptualization of
> experience is or might be all-important in some way, it is certainly in no
> way controllable or manipuable.  It just happens continually, whether or no
> I will it.
> 
> Now, you've offered your own experience, gleaned from meditation and what it
> seems to me that you've offered then,  is post-conceptualization rather than
> pre-conceptualization.  You have to still your mind in order to cease the
> chattering flow of consciousness, and this only occurs with intent and
> forethought.  I suppose it could be called pre-conceptual in relation to the
> thoughts which come after you've achieved it, but that's just a verbal
> gimmick of labeling what can only be accomplished intentionally beforehand.
> 
> Furthermore, my main point is that all the action is only in
> conceptualization.  Babies might partake of this divine state of mind, but
> babies don't do much creating, building, planting or reaping.  They just sit
> there.  That's why it seems to me that pragmatically speaking, there is no
> value in direct experience, or the doctrine of Radical Empiricism.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> John

 
Hi John,

I hesitate to offer too much about my experiences because what I say would 
be a first-person description.   I think I've said I've seen thoughts (patterns) 
flow through consciousness during meditation.  And I said I've had, among 
other strange events, a few unpatterned experiences.  But anything 
more descriptive would be a very subjective, one-person interpretation.  
Buddhism is one tradition that has twenty-five hundred years of studying
the mind.  They are far more accurate with their documented experiences, 
experiments and explanations.  

I'd say the experience is to realize first-hand the nature of the mind.  No 
independent, "real" self and no independent, "real" objects.  And isn't the 
MoQ pointing beyond a reality based on self and objects towards a reality 
based on Quality.  Well, nothing beats seeing if for yourself.   If you ordered 
'Mind In The Balance', it will be explained by one very knowledgable about
this type of insight.  Mine would be the explanation of a bug.   


Marsha 
 
 
 


 
 
 
 

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