[MD] reality

[118]

Hi Adrie,

Perhaps I don't get it, I will try to respond to your post below.

On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 8:39 AM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com>wrote:

> [Adrie]

You don't get it Mark, you keep on defining yourself as observer.
>
> Once an observation is made for the first  time, by an observer
> the fact already became known observable reality, you cannot destroy the
> information after that event,so strictly spoken trees will make a sound in
> the forest when they fall, everytime since then.
>

[Mark]
You speak of this as if you know.  How do you know?

[Adrie]
> Using radikal empiricism every time again as something new to be deployed
> on every upcoming  observation, is not a good idea.
>
> try this, standing in front of the ocean,as a radikal empiricist, observe
> it, only the waves and the water,and conclude, "there is no fish in the
> ocean, i cannot observe it, it is no reality"
>
> wrong , the observation was already made long ago, by the first observer,
> a fisherman, that there is fish in the ocean. You cannot make reality or
> information un-done again, information cannot be destroyed.
>

[Mark]
What you are referring to here is information given to you by others.  No,
you cannot destroy it.  I have no argument with you there.  Some information
has higher quality than others.  How do you decide?

[Adrie]
> Try this as another example, the power cordconnection in the wall.
> Observe it as a radikal empiricist, and conclude there will be no
> elektricity if i put a copper nail in the socket, with my hand, because i
> cannot observe it.
>
> Wrong, you defined yourself as observer,but the Primary  observation was
> already been made, earlier on,you can safely assume that you will get
> electrocuted if you try.
> Still, you did not re-invent elektricity by that attempt, it was already
> there.
> The first observation ever placed it into observable reality ever since.
> You cannot destroy this information.
>

[Mark]
Yes, this is information that we learn.  I do not want to destroy it and
have to re-invent it.  What of the information that has not been created
yet?  Can you point to this?  I think we have to create it first.  That is
my point.  We are constantly creating information.  I do not see how it can
be otherwise.  You state the information is already there, I say that we
create it.  I think that is the difference.  We cannot find information,
only create it.

>
> [Adrie]
> The false observation that is misleading you is to define yourself as
> observer.
> The second false observation is using the word/tool "radikal"....without
> the
> tandem,..'radikal empiricism'
> Don't observe radikal, solely depending on radikalism.
> The third false observation is this.
> The tree will make no sound , ever, not on earth , not in a spacelab, not
> on
> the moon, not in vacuum or in any reality, without hearing observer.
>

[Mark]
Yes, I think this is the question.  Radical empiricism depends on
experience.  Do you deny this?  What is there before experience?  I think
you are inferring outside of experience.  Do you know what you do not know?
 You require information which is provided to you, it doesn't exist before
that.  How can it?

[Adrie]
> Take your ability to hear away,and you will never observe the sound.
> So , to relying on your ability to 'hear' as observer, will generate again
> a
> false observation, what about deaf people?...
> will the tree make a sound when falling?
>

[Mark]
You are speaking of false observation.  Wouldn't the false observation be
something you haven't experienced?  Deaf people can get the information that
trees make sound, this is also information that is created.  Their
experience will be through that information.  Your notion of false
information is false in my view.

>
> [Adrie]
> The last mistake is this, as a false observation.
> trees never make sounds when they fall,only the soundwave does that.
> On the moon a tree will fall silently, always.
>

[Mark]
Sound is experience, I don't know how else to say this.

>
> [Adrie]
> Radikal empiricism is a mighty tool, but only in the hands of people
> mastering it
> Every observation,no matter how observed, no matter how the observer was
> defined, generated information.
> Its impossible to destroy this information.
>

[Mark]
I do not know if you fully grasp the notion of radical empiricism.  We must
create the information through experience, there is no other way.  Nobody is
talking about destroying information.  Different people have different
information, that is what makes up our realities.  I cannot conceive of
information waiting to be found, it is created.

[Adrie]
> And yes , information resides at all 4 levels, under the ubrella of
> quality.
> There are no objects or subjects without quality, not even information or
> non-information.
>

[Mark]
The umbrella of Quality?  Information is perceived from Quality.  The
difference between things, some high some low.  Values are created by
information, through the experiences we have.  There is not some Quality
waiting to be found.  If you point the way, I still have to create it.

>
>
> There is at least some physikal evidence that information itself is a form
> of matter/energy.
>

[Mark]
Here you are applying to the church of reason or science.  You state your
interpretation of Quality falls within the realms of physics.  It is the
other way around.  This is the whole purpose of MOQ.  Information provides
physical evidence, not the other way around.

[Adrie]

> I will try to find a link.
>

[Mark]
Your words are better than a link.

Cheers,
Mark

>
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