[MD] Emptiness & Quantum Mechancics

Sat Oct 9 10:27:13 PDT 2010

On Oct 9, 2010, at 12:29 PM, 118 wrote:

> Mark:
> My take on the Buddhist side is that things do not exist, period.  Perhaps a
> good analogy would be a wave on the ocean.  If one breaks it down, does it
> really exist?  This speaks to your posts concerning patterns.  The notion is
> that it is a composite of many tendencies.  And those tendencies are
> composites in themselves.  Thus no inherent existence.  Is there then a
> first cause tendency?  Can that be described as Quality?

I think Mahayana Buddhism would say that things exist conventionally, 
dependent on multiple causes and conditions that are in turn dependent on 
multiple causes and condition that are in turn dependent on multiple causes 
and conditions.  Do you mean Quality as the relationships, or events, or process 
between and conditions?  -  There doesn't seem to be a need for a first cause; 
maybe a cyclical view of existence.   

> Mark:
> Interesting posts below concerning betterness which I liked.  This would
> imply direction in some way, the arrow of Quality.  To get away from the
> relativism and subjective (if it is possible) for a second, can we ask about
> that direction?  To start with, is that direction absolute?  

Marsha:
Personally, I do not know what is absolute, though one may theorize.  Within 
the MoQ, there is a movement towards greater freedom and that would be 
towards betterment.  That is my understanding.  

> Mark:
> Are we being pushed in that direction or being pulled?  Is the path already
> formed, like a canyon which a river travels down in pure Quality?  If so, what
> is the metaphysical shape of that canyon?  I believe that is one metaphorical
> way of describing this structure we are creating.  The boundaries so to speak.

Marsha:
I have no experience that might address your speculations, but they seem to 
be forming an object-like pictures of a process.  Personally, the most I can say is 
that Quality may be experienced as unpatterned and patterned.  After that I might 
try to understand how the MoQ fits together according to its presenter/author.    

> Mark:
> Now, I'm sure that this is answered all the time in this forum, and that I
> am but a neophyte.  And it is clear that the answer to such questions can
> result in religious or scientific solutions which have meaning.  Those would
> appear objective (in some way) to me.  Now if we return back to the
> subjective and try to reify it with such a concept what are we left with?
> Betterness indeed, but what does that mean?  Maps within maps, quantum
> enigmas, all tools towards providing meaning.  And what makes things
> meaningful to the subjective?  Perhaps the shape of Quality could answer
> that.

Marsha:
Static patterns of value are goodness moving towards betterness.  Again, 
the mostly I can say of Quality is that it is unpatterned experience and 
patterned experience.  I don't think that objectification within science is bad,
but to think it represents the way things really are is mistaken which results in 
the loss of recognizing Value.  

Marsha 

> 
> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:02 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> From the Buddhist side, things exist interdependently.  For example, all
>> things
>> depend upon being designated or imputed by consciousness.  From a MoQ
>> point-of-view, this is why I am so interested in the nature of patterns,
>> all patterns.
>> And I have determined that they are ever-changing, impermanent,
>> interdependent.
>> 
>> Isn't the reason we're in this forum is to discover the nature of reality?
>> What it is:
>> Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned experience.)  What it is not: an
>> independent existing self and independent existing objects.
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 1:08 AM, 118 wrote:
>> 
>>> I guess it depends on how you define existence.  So, what kind of
>> existence
>>> is left, non-essence, acquired existence, extrinsic existence, relative
>>> existence, codependent existence?  Maybe we are all enabling each other,
>>> give me a cigarette this is too heavy.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:36 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> To further expand:
>>>> 
>>>> Emptiness is the concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>> essence,
>>>> inherent existence, independent existence, intrinsic existence and
>> absolute
>>>> existence.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 2:13 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> To expand:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Emptiness is the concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>>>> essence, inherent existence, and independent existence.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:47 PM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Emptiness is concept that self and all phenomenon are empty of
>> inherent
>>>> existence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> John to Marsha:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Meditate.  But don't meditate upon nothingness, or you will obtain
>>>>>>> nothingness.  Meditate upon truth and you will know truth.  It's
>> really
>>>> very
>>>>>>> simple.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Andre:
>>>>>>> John, I'll be honest and say that I have not followed the entire
>> thread
>>>> but this caught my attention.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Prey tell, what is your understanding of 'nothingness' (in Buddhism)
>>>> and what is 'truth'(in radical empiricism)?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think you need to be clear on these two concepts before you burden
>>>> Marsha with meditating on them.
>>>>>>> Trying to follow Marsha's frame of mind it sounds like an eternal
>>>> condemnation into reified and at the
>>>>>>> same time relativized sq....she'll go nuts!!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Tell me John, is this your true hidden agenda in all this?...get rid
>> of
>>>> the bitch!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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