[MD] Step One

Sat Oct 16 13:58:54 PDT 2010

Hi Andrie,

Yes, Dutch Underground.  My father has many stories, and there are books on
the subject.  And yes, fought, he carried a gun.  They went by code names,
my father's was Lange Jan (because of his height at 6'6'').  Many of his
friends were killed at Allied supply drop-offs done by air.  He doesn't talk
much of this but it certainly formed his perspective on evil.  His sister
worked in the office of fake documentation.  His house was used to hide
Jews, which was of course punishable by death.  We have a lot to thank them
all for.

The first thing that I used to do, while living in England in the late '80s
and taking the ferry to Belgium, was to get some fries met fritsauce.  Loved
it!  I would then drive up to Holland to visit relatives.  I used to explore
the German bunkers near the beach at Schevenignen as a boy.  They were
surrounded with barbed wire that we, as kids, used to have to get passed.
 Long tunnels and such.  Great for exploring.  Never stepped on a land mine
fortunately.

Regards,
Mark

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 1:44 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Yes, tought is was fitting, Surinam of course, at first i was thinking
> towards Bonaire/aruban.
> I know Wassenaar and Scheveningen well, best beach of the entire world out
> there.
>
> The fries are national food in Belgium, and originate from here, the name
> french fries is a distortion, because Belgium
> is 50 % french speaking.
>
> Fought in the Dutch underground as teenager? I have no knowledge about a
> Dutch underground but the Dutch fought the wars in Indochina,Korean war,
> many semi native Dutch served in these army's. So this is possible.
> If so , they had a naming, the KNIL,  k.n.i.l, i think it translates as
> Koninklijk nederlands indisch leger, royal Dutch/indish army.
>
> So if you want to google , knil, and set for pictures
> or,   http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koninklijk_Nederlandsch-Indisch_Leger
>
> its all there ;padi wars , Lombok, Atjeh, Java, etc
>
>
>
> 2010/10/16 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>
>
> > My father was born and raised in Holland, attended Leiden University.
> >  Fought in the Dutch underground as a teenager.  I do have ancestors from
> > Surinam.  I love the french fries met sauce in Belgium.  I lived in a
> > community called Marlot, which was near Wasenaar, not too far from
> > Scheveningen
> >
> > Yes, you cannot have physics without metaphysics.  In fact it is a
> > metaphysics, Andrie.  Once you realize that, whole worlds open up.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:54 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <parser666 at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Is your father native Dutch or indodutch or an islander from
> > > Bonaire/Curacao?
> > >
> > > My mother is Dutch, i'm a Belgian, been in The Hague many times , also
> in
> > > S'Gravenhage, Heilo, etc.
> > > I live on 1.5 mile of the Dutch border.
> > >
> > > Physiks/metaphysiks, you cannot have a metaphysikal world without a
> > > physikal
> > > one , Mark.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2010/10/16 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > > Hi Andrie,
> > > >
> > > > Yes, you may be correct, coherence is not one of my strong points.  I
> > > also
> > > > do not wish to discuss religion, and only bring it up as a foil to
> your
> > > use
> > > > of science.  I am more than happy to discuss based on logic.  Just
> > don't
> > > > use
> > > > physics as if it really proves something in metaphysics.  Too many
> > people
> > > > are falling into that trap.  Physics is a useful tool for
> communicating
> > > > ideas, but it is an idea in itself.
> > > >
> > > > By the way, I take it you are from Holland.  I went to elementary
> > school
> > > in
> > > > The Hague for four years.  This was many years ago so my once
> > semi-fluent
> > > > Dutch has faded.  My father is Dutch and I have fond memories of the
> > > Dutch
> > > > people.  Hope you guys are still as friendly and sensible as I
> > remember.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 1:18 AM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <
> parser666 at gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well, I'v been reading the edge of chaos in the archives.
> > > > > Do you understand the word decoherence?
> > > > > Mind this , i can see a very high intellect at the same time.
> > > > >
> > > > > contemplate.
> > > > > Hm, other forms of knowledge/bible.
> > > > >
> > > > > The bible is not written by Jesus, nor by god,none of the value's
> > > within
> > > > > the
> > > > > old or new testament
> > > > > are representing god's or Jesus his opinion or value's.
> > > > > I do not dismiss them, i will not discuss them with you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you are clever enough to have a discussion with me , buth i
> > > have
> > > > my
> > > > > doubts on the coherence part.
> > > > > All previous evidence is against you.
> > > > > The edge of chaos.Hm.
> > > > > greetz, Adrie
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/10/16 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Andrie,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Spoken like a true preacher, yes even preachers can build lasers.
> > >  Now,
> > > > > get
> > > > > > out of your pulpit and contemplate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, light can be described by waves or particles.  The key word
> is
> > > > > > described.  One can use physics to describe reality in the same
> way
> > > the
> > > > > > bible can describe God.  There is no difference.  If you think
> that
> > > > there
> > > > > > is, you are way too deep into Scientism and need to come up for
> > some
> > > > air.
> > > > > >  So like you can say that is very "zen" of you, I would retort
> > well,
> > > > that
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > very "science" of you.  You can measure light, others can measure
> > > > > > spirituality, it all depends what you use as the ruler.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So physics is a great tool for insight, but nothing more.  If you
> > > think
> > > > > you
> > > > > > truly understand things through physics, then perhaps consider
> what
> > > the
> > > > > > basis is for such understanding.  If it is things you have read
> in
> > > > books,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > taken classes on, then this is analogous to a seminary education.
> > > >  Please
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > not dismiss other forms of knowledge out of hand.  We are after
> all
> > > > > talking
> > > > > > about MoQ, which can be enhanced by physics but certainly not
> > proven.
> > > > >  Now,
> > > > > > I am making a lot of assumptions based on your recent posts,
> which
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > quite right of me.  However, where does Quality come in?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And so, you understand light.  So tell me, at what speed would
> > light
> > > > > > consider itself to be traveling?  Here's a hint: speed equals
> > > distance
> > > > > (as
> > > > > > experienced by the traveler) divided by time (as experienced by
> the
> > > > > > traveler).  You take it from there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 2:51 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <
> > > parser666 at gmail.com
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Dave,
> > > > > > > But this is fucking "zen" of you Dave.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm aware of the lightcircle experiment, was done for the first
> > > time
> > > > by
> > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > Hedgecoe , a famous English fotographer.
> > > > > > > Hm, the Holographic analogy, strange you mention it in a
> > > nerd-context
> > > > ,
> > > > > > > strange , because the pioneers work from one of your ancestors
> in
> > > > > > relation
> > > > > > > to pumped lasers, was leading to the holographic development.
> > > > > > > I investigated your relative, and indeed, the work he was
> doeiing
> > > was
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > performant and boundary stretching.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The pumped lasers were my field homebase for many years. The
> > > > > interference
> > > > > > > patterns delivered by the pumped lasers
> > > > > > > in an opposite towards eachother pointed gunbarrel setup,
> created
> > > the
> > > > > > > holographic possibilities.
> > > > > > > I can build a ruby or an argonlaser or an yag-laser on my own
> > > merits
> > > > ,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > they originate, Mainmann, Einstein, your ancestor.
> > > > > > > Einstein was the cointosser for Maser/laser, he pointed out
> > towards
> > > > the
> > > > > > > possibility.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pumped lasers can make a workaround for the
> measurementproblem,so
> > a
> > > > > nobel
> > > > > > > for this work was well earned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Quote DMB
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This metaphor breaks down at a certain "point" because that
> > > sparkler
> > > > or
> > > > > > > point of light is not solid thing or entity either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well , not in physiks, light is a solid thing, moving ,but
> > > generating
> > > > a
> > > > > > > force, a light on a surface is generating a pressurediffernce
> > > > > > > in opposite to shadow, lesser light , it can be measured , "it"
> > is
> > > > > > present
> > > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > light has a weight and a force.It is there.
> > > > > > > This is commonly knowledge in science.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Light cannot dissapear once it is generated, the entropycal
> > nature
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > universe does not allow it , it can only degrade to heat,
> warmth,
> > > or
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > radiation, energy can never dissapear again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So , strictly spoken, if you are an independant observer on a
> > > planet
> > > > > > > removed
> > > > > > > exactly 58 lightyears away from here
> > > > > > > you will be able to witness the lightflash of "Ivy" the first
> > > nuclear
> > > > > > > hydrogen bombexperiment of the Us, done on Eniwetok-atol
> > > > > > > in 1952.
> > > > > > > This is the time light took for itself to travel at lightspeed,
> > > > 300.000
> > > > > > > km/sec , to reach the observer planet.
> > > > > > > The light is still there, still travelling, and it will appear
> to
> > > be
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > the independant observer, i will deliver force, and look as a
> new
> > > > > > > expierience, a moment in the present, 58 years old,....
> > > > > > > The relative position of the observer.Strange? no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The jewels.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes , they are like the waves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is no wave dependant or independant from the previous,
> all
> > > > waves
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > dependant and independant at the same moment in time.
> > > > > > > This goes for sound waves, light waves, pressure waves,
> > > > > temperaturewave's
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > all waves show the same caracter, all waves
> > > > > > > are responding to the uncertainty-principle.
> > > > > > > Is a wave a representation of all other wave's? no and yes at
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > time,(Heisenberg), there is  no way around this.
> > > > > > > No way, not since Einstein or Heisenberg.
> > > > > > > The old man's last question was about the wave caracter of
> > matter.
> > > > > > > As in matter is energy and energy is matter, only the
> appearances
> > > are
> > > > > > > different(entopical principle)
> > > > > > > E= Mc 2, so it appears to be so that also matter is owning the
> > > > > > > waveformcaracter.
> > > > > > > (*as an aside, this is why i said earlier that quality comes in
> > > > waves)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (E )covers all energy, all light , all movement , from a
> droplet
> > of
> > > > > water
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > an ocean's wave, the movement of planets
> > > > > > > the movement of us, all movement , every last bit of it.Every
> > > > universe.
> > > > > > > M2 is mass square, it covers all mass, every rock, every grain
> of
> > > > sand,
> > > > > > > within or without the common universe, every leaf, every
> > > > > > > weight , every tree. So ,E and  Mc 2 covers the entire universe
> > in
> > > > one
> > > > > > > formula and  nothing is excluded.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So the function existence of Wiliam James, the proces is true
> and
> > > > valid
> > > > > ,
> > > > > > > energy is mass, mass is energy,light is darkness, and darkness
> is
> > > > > light,
> > > > > > > conciounsness is in-coinciousness, rationality is
> irrationality,
> > a
> > > > > proces
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > a non-proces at the same time.
> > > > > > > Rationality cannot exist without irrationality, etc, expandable
> > > > without
> > > > > > > limitation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The squirrels.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'v had a peach tree for several years, a native one from
> Turkey,
> > > > > > collected
> > > > > > > myself in Selcuk, as a little plant, Selcuk, the cave of seven
> > > > > sleepers,
> > > > > > > Hadrianus his library, the main street to Ephesos, The statue
> of
> > > > arete.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We take a little tin can, divide the peaches in two , and fill
> > the
> > > > can
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > peaches , then add porto of 42 years old, then boil it on the
> > > > > > > BBQ, let the peaches take the porto, allow the alcohol to boil
> > in,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > result is superb, a native peach tree from Selcuk, Porto of 42
> > > years
> > > > > old,
> > > > > > > boil it in, and eat the peaches, ........this is so very "zen'
> of
> > > me,
> > > > > > > fucking zen, "Zen" with a capital peach letter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 110 dollar for this bottle porto is not too much, the peaches
> are
> > > > > > heavenly.
> > > > > > > I also have a little vineyard. But that's another story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > loved the squirrel analogy , Dave, thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2010/10/15 david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dan said to Ron:
> > > > > > > > I don't know for sure, but I would say that the selfless
> > > existence
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > mean denying the self so much as it means realizing the self
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > exist
> > > > > > > > in light of the Buddha's teachings.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > dmb says:
> > > > > > > > William James says that consciousness is not a thing or an
> > entity
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > exists as a function, as a process. Alan Watts uses the image
> > of
> > > a
> > > > > > point
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > light moving in a circular motion, like a sparkler on the
> > fourth
> > > of
> > > > > > july.
> > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > the darkness, a steady motion can make that point look like a
> > > full
> > > > > > > circle.
> > > > > > > > To mistake the self as a thing or entity is like taking that
> > > point
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > circle. This metaphor breaks down at a certain "point"
> because
> > > that
> > > > > > > sparkler
> > > > > > > > or point of light is not solid thing or entity either.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And when you start to think of all the things that make
> > > > consciousness
> > > > > > > > possible - words, tongues, brains, sounds, gravity, food,
> > > mothers,
> > > > > > > > evolution, etc, etc, etc forever - the notion that it is some
> > one
> > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > "thing" starts to seem pretty absurd. You know, this is what
> > the
> > > > net
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > jewels image means. Each jewel reflects all the other jewels
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is only in relation to all other jewels. Some people (nerds)
> > > prefer
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > holographic analogy. I mean, the idea of co-dependent arising
> > > > applies
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > self just as much as any other "thing".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Inspired by the recent discussion concerning quality in
> > writing,
> > > I
> > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > poem. It's a meditation on my back yard and it came to me as
> I
> > > had
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > cigarette there just now. If it had a title it would be
> > something
> > > > > like:
> > > > > > > "NOT
> > > > > > > > very fucking Zen of you, Dave!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > a peach tree grows
> > > > > > > > squirrels skitter
> > > > > > > > a garden hose
> > > > > > > > becomes a weapon
> > > > > > > > against hungry little thieves
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > P.S. The peaches were awesome. We had a peach-picking dinner
> > > party
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > friends. I did not invite the squirrels.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
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